Ammo Test: 147gr Winchester Ranger "T" Series - RA9T

[C0untZer0]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UP7p3fxgzE

I wish I had stuck with this ammo.  I put Federal 147gr HSTs in my R9 and sheared the pin.  Mt R9 used to cycle these things flawlessly...

They really look fantastic in this test.

[backupr9]

How do you explain better penetration thru denim than without?  Either the gel was not consistent or this was magic denim (assuming the pistol was allowed to cool between tests).

[MRC]

How do you explain better penetration thru denim than without?  Either the gel was not consistent or this was magic denim (assuming the pistol was allowed to cool between tests).

That is what you would expect.  The denim plugs the hollow point limiting expansion, so it penetrates further.  Very common.

[backupr9]

Makes sense, but the pics didn't really make a change in expansion clear to me...old eyes I guess.

[MRC]

John

Look at the picture showing all of the recovered bullets.  Very consistent expansion.  You can easily tell which ones shot through the denim.

Good test.  I have never liked  147 gr bullets as they sometimes do not have enough velocity to expand and then they over penetrate.

[C0untZer0]

I think they're great, even when they don't expand all the way they don't over-penetrate.

The big problem with this ammo is I can never find it for sale!

I keep 147gr HST in my CM9.

[backupr9]

I have a good supply of older 124 Gold Dots which work fine in my R9, but have been buying HST a 124 when I can find it.  Some of the recent posts about GD .32 on the Seecamp forum are scary.

[JR956678]

Some of the recent posts about GD .32 on the Seecamp forum are scary.

You got me curious enough to check that out and what they weren't talking about was (to me) more scary than what they were talking about.

The first explanation that came to my mind (which was one they weren't talking about) is that the bullets on the new GD were either not seated quite as deeply as they should be, or that the shape of the bullet has changed and what was causing the round to chamber and then lock the slide forward was that the bullet was engaging the rifling when it chambered. That causes the bullet to get stuck and you have to pry it back to disengage the rifling so you can extract it. It's a combination of bullet ogive (shape) and OAL combined with the chambering and the amount of freebore in a particular firearm.

Normally you want some freebore so that the bullet gets started down the barrel before it engages the rifling - it has a bit of kinetic energy to help get it started in the rifling. If the bullet is touching the lands or jammed into the lands it has no kinetic energy and relies totally on chamber pressure to get it moving and that can result in excessively high chamber pressures. And danger. I cringed when I read tales of actually shooting these rounds before an effort was made to find out why they jammed and locked the slide.

I mention this specifically because as I recall, one of the "tricks" of the R9 is that it has a little extra freebore in the chambering - to give a good "running start" to the bullet to reduce chamber pressures and while a bullet shape and OAL that might jam a Seecamp might seem to be fine in an R9 - in reality it could reduce the freebore and result in high chamber pressures. Not a good thing and enough to make me seriously afraid of that bullet weight and manufacturer.

I suspect this could be more of an issue with 147gr than 125gr or 115gr - the higher bullet weight could well result in a bad combination. This could be what caused C0untZer0 to shear a pin in his R9.

[MRC]

I have been reloading for over 30 years and the problems they are having with the 32 Gold Dots probably has nothing to do with the bullet but with the bullet seating and crimping process.

The case mouth is flared to let the bullet start in.  After the bullet is seated to the proper length, a "taper Crimp" is put on the case mouth which squeezes the brass case against the bullet jacket.  If the case is longer than normal, or the case wall is thicker than normal, or the die is not set right, the process will push the case mouth too hard and form a bulge in it making the cartridge's OD too large to enter the chamber.  The "bulge" can be so slight that you can barely see it and and still cause trouble.

That is just a guess of what is going on from my reloading experience.

[JR956678]

I have been reloading for over 30 years and the problems they are having with the 32 Gold Dots probably has nothing to do with the bullet but with the bullet seating and crimping process.

I've been reloading for about a decade longer - long enough to not only understand precisely what you're talking about but long enough to have made a ton of 380 ACP, 9mm and 45 ACP rounds that had the exact problems you describe. They never fed worth a tinker's d**n but they never jammed the action of a pistol to the point where I couldn't open the slide - for the most part they failed to feed or failed to return to battery.

But the 32 ACP (the subject of the Seecamp forum posts) is a bit different in that while most auto rounds (380, 9mm and 45) headspace on the mouth of the case (which makes case length and crimp dimensions critical) the 32 headspaces not on the mouth but on the rim. And that changes the dimensions of the chamber that make the math fuzzy when it comes to this problem.

The 32 ACP case round is .680 long from rim to mouth. It's .358 dia at the rim, .338 at the base and .337 at the mouth. I assume there are tolerances (that were not on the drawing I found) but they are probably +.0000 / -.00xx - in other words these are the maximum dimensions. The 32 ACP chamber is .693 long (.013 longer than the case), .362 at the rim, .344 at the base and .339 at the mouth. There is a -.0000 / +.0040 tolerance. Assuming the smallest chamber, a case would have to be larger than .339 in order to jam - by perhaps .001 - call it .340. Such a case would probably get started into the chamber (chamber starts at .344) but I doubt it would ever go into battery. If it DID it would require some forcing - the point at which the tapered chamber would match a .340 case is about .135" out of battery and any case belled out larger that .340 would start jamming greater than .135 out of battery.

I think a round that starts jamming that far out of battery would be hard to miss yet the forum posts mention nothing about a problem going into battery - only a problem opening the slide after chambering one of these questionable rounds.

Regardless of which one of us is right, more right, or more wrong as to the exact mechanics of the problem these Seecamp owners are experiencing, we might be able to agree on one thing:

A round which chambers but needs to be pried out of the chamber with a screwdriver in order to open the action indicates a problem with that gun and that ammo, and before firing it in the gun they should be finding out exactly what's wrong.

[MRC]

The Seecamp also is a retarded blowback system so there is a "groove" machined in the chamber to keep the slide from opening early and this give another place for the "bulged" cartridge to get hung up in.

Without seeing the problem cartridges, we are all just guessing.

[ricardo]

All of the above. And, incorrect crimp will cause incorrect or inconsistent pressures.

[tracker]

Thank you, gentlemen, for the technical reloading expertise and explanation. What astounds me is why would anyone carry such an anemic round for self-defense in the first place?

[C0untZer0]

Well the FMJs penetrate to around 13" so if you poke a hole in the right organ it can save your life.

My biggest problem with 32 ACP is not the round but the guns that are available.

If the Kel-Tec P-32 had decent sites I would have purchased one already.

I always find something wrong with the guns.

[tracker]

So, what is the point if you can carry a 9mm or .380 with reported much improved reported ballistics from Precision One ammo, for example? Why would one need good sights on a 5-10 ft. encounter range?