Best caliber for CCW?

[the_skunk]

* Situational Awareness - Avoid the conflict

* Get the upper hand - Don't go head-to-head, wait until their guard is down

* A dependable gun - A double action pocket gun with no safety

* Caliber - At Self Defense distances, it's not critical


The R9 seems pretty close to the ideal pocket gun.   If you go to a holstered gun, then there a lot of good choices. A Kimber Ultra 9mm isn't bad. As far as caliber, my car gun is a Browning HP 9mm. I got to think that range time is important because it tests a gun dependability, and you get familiar with a certain gun.

At the end of the day, I carry a 32 seecamp, because of size, safety and dependability.

[Douglas]

I'm also a big .38 special fan. We still use FBI loads, with a potential switch to the NY load on the horizon. I've shot both and am comfortable with either.

Either way, I plead guilty to getting tied up in internal knots over "how many rounds is enough." It sometimes keeps me from carrying the J frame that I love as a primary.

Sometimes it doesn't.

A bit of  followup, for my area, at least:

I tell you what: I've been watching some recent surveillance videos of robberies. That is, a bunch.

My opinion? 5 rounds may just be enough.

The robberies tend to be strong arm. Some do have weapons, but largely not. They are four or five young guys (men or boys, depending on whether you are a reasonable person, or the NY Times) pounding the hell out of a victim who should have known it was coming, but usually seems to have have chosen (that's CHOSEN) not to recognize their situation.

The repeated scenario: five male blacks surround a victim in some public place at midnight. The victim does not react at all. (Maybe they think that to do so would be racist?) So they don't react at all; like the bad guys are not there. No kidding. It's bizarre.

Then the bad guys beat the crap out of the victim and take his stuff.

Now obviously (here, at least) you can't shoot them all. They are not "armed."

Afterwards, you will have shot "five unarmed black teens." 

We've all seen these situations repeatedly; and I've seen for two-plus decades what it would be spun as.

But if you had to shoot one of them, I believe (my opinion, based on how "flighty" the perps generally appear) it would disrupt the robbery, and the rest would flee. And that is defensible.

If you have to fight multiple perps armed with firearms, there seems almost no way you could prevail.

You may survive, if you're lucky.

But... you can't use suppressive fire to move to cover or escape, since naturally you are responsible for every round fired.

So are they of course. But they don't care.

Even if you have a "reasonable" amount of ammunition... if they have guns, they have that, times three or more...

...and they don't worry about stray rounds.

I'm beginning to think that five rounds isn't as crazy as it sounds. 

[JoshA]

Just curious, why would you prefer a .38 over a Glock 26 for instance?

I don't shoot my j frame very well.

The Glock 26/27 is more accurate, very reliable, more ammo, faster reloads (I usually don't carry a backup mag when using a double stack though), thinner. This doesn't even touch on the trigger issue. Also lighter unless the j is an airweight snub nose) and then I really don't shoot that well due to recoil and the short barrel.

Don't get me wrong, I understand that there are other good semi auto options to be used as an example, but the G26/27 came to mind due to its popularity with LE.

You are obviously seasoned and have a reason for your liking to the J frame. Not trying to do more than figure out your train of thought. Thanks sir.

[Douglas]

Josh,

I think nutnfancy on YouTube calls it "the second kind of cool" or something similar. He means when you use something just because you like it. I do like the wheelgun for lots of reasons, many that are completely emotional.

Rationally, I think you're exactly right:  besides ease of carry, there's very little to justify a J over a G. Once you actually need the gun, that very little may even shrink to nothing at all.

That's why I spend too much time thinking about it. There's what you know, what you think, what you wish, what you're not sure of... It all competes for primacy when making choices. I'm as guilty as anyone of doing things that I know are probably not the smartest things to do. 

Doug

[hedrok]

If I may add a comment or 2, Josh...
As you know, not all J frames are air weights.  I personally believe that the air weight revolver with +P or .357 is a major contributor to many peoples' belief that J frames are inaccurate.  The dreaded "flinch" during the long trigger pull is easily developed simply because of the pain of shooting a hot round out of a gun that was designed more for "carrying comfort" than shooting consistency.  Weight = shock absorption.  Lack of shock absorption = flinch.  It's very difficult to overcome the mental aspect of the anticipation of pain.  For every 10 rds. fired that were painful...I'd guess it might take 50 rds of no pain to erase the damage from the mind.
Additionally, the "inaccuracy" seems to be more from practicing more with short trigger pull semi autos than with the longer pull guns like revolvers, Rohrbaugh and Seecamp semis. 
Just guessing here but if the same thought process and care was used in firing a lighter recoil ammo in a revolver as would be used in a R9 or Seecamp 32, much of the inaccuracy would disappear.

A side benefit to practicing double action only with revolvers is that when the long, straight trigger pull becomes accurate, just about all firearms will be more accurate because of muscle memory re-enforcement.

I've found all of the above to be true for me...you may find differently.

[JoshA]

I get it Douglas. I was kind of thinking it had to do with an overall attachment to the old school favorite of so many for whatever reason rather than pure scientific blah, blah, blah.

Thanks for the candid answer. I have the same thing going on. Constantly trying to balance between wants, needs and how it all comes together.

That being said, I would say you are making a smart decision if you decided to carry your j frame. You are carrying an effective handgun you like and have a confidence will take care of you and yours in a bad situation. I respect that.

Thanks for the help sir.

Oh also, I really like nut-n-fancy. He does a very good job in his reviews IMO. Very thorough. The only thing I don't relate to is that he doesn't really review from a EDC in a metro environment as much as in the desert on his really cool course decked out in fatigues. I really like him though.

[JoshA]

If I may add a comment or 2, Josh...
As you know, not all J frames are air weights.  I personally believe that the air weight revolver with +P or .357 is a major contributor to many peoples' belief that J frames are inaccurate.  The dreaded "flinch" during the long trigger pull is easily developed simply because of the pain of shooting a hot round out of a gun that was designed more for "carrying comfort" than shooting consistency.  Weight = shock absorption.  Lack of shock absorption = flinch.  It's very difficult to overcome the mental aspect of the anticipation of pain.  For every 10 rds. fired that were painful...I'd guess it might take 50 rds of no pain to erase the damage from the mind.
Additionally, the "inaccuracy" seems to be more from practicing more with short trigger pull semi autos than with the longer pull guns like revolvers, Rohrbaugh and Seecamp semis. 
Just guessing here but if the same thought process and care was used in firing a lighter recoil ammo in a revolver as would be used in a R9 or Seecamp 32, much of the inaccuracy would disappear.

A side benefit to practicing double action only with revolvers is that when the long, straight trigger pull becomes accurate, just about all firearms will be more accurate because of muscle memory re-enforcement.

I've found all of the above to be true for me...you may find differently.

Thanks Hedrock. Makes sense. I wasn't trying to call all j frames inaccurate really. Just saying that a true carry size (debatable term) .38 with a double action trigger, 5 shots, short barrel, short site radius and no recoil spring would be hard for this guy to shoot well compared to a good auto.

I see your points as valid though and also understand some guys just like revolvers and can shoot them well. And if we are talking magnums, they have an unrivaled (unless we are talking about one of MRC's or Richard's little beauties) ability to deliver much force to their destination.

Great points you make IMO. I'll bet I could shoot pretty good at a piece of paper with some practice, but multi shots while moving at multi targets out of a comfortable, concealed holster carry scenario... I think I know why militaries and LE have donned reliable semis.

[hedrok]

Just about the only reason ANY gun is inaccurate should be first attributed to "operator error."  Many say Glocks are accurate...but certainly not for me.  Eight or so years ago when I switched away from Glock, it was like walking into a new world.  But...that's me.
My hand is small and the contours of certain rubber grips on say, a 940 S&W mate up perfectly.  The smaller Glocks like the 26 & 27 fit very well for several guys I know...but they also say the 940 fits them better.  But, they still carry the Glock because they've decided that they were more mentally comfortable with more rds. and spare mags.  I get that completely...and agree in the case of R9s which I shoot as well as the snub wheelies.
It's interesting to note that the sight radius is close to the same.  Moon clips can be close to as fast as mags to reload in 9mm.  But, don't forget...in all probability...very few rounds will be fired. 
Police and military are challenged with a completely different set of circumstances than we, as non-authority wielding citizens are including parts , service and commonality of mags and ammo for operations involving more than just one person.

Other folks that I've talked to seem to make a lot of their decisions based on what their clothing must be for their jobs.  I'm fortunate in that I can dress any way I want, so I don't need to make concessions in concealing a firearm...within reason, of course.

Note:  The ONLY reason I don't carry my R9 is simple...I don't want to lose it because of a need to protect self and others.  I can get another 940...not so with a unique R9.  The same is true with some special # Seecamps...I carry the one I own that's "off the shelf" when I'm forced to go that small.  Just sentimental, I guess...

[JoshA]

I like the 940.

I couldn't argue with ya. Sounds like everybody has preferences and that's great. Keeps the gun market spinning : )

My problem is that I have too many preferences. Haha. I get pulled this way and that. I guess i will settle in one day soon (I hope).

[hedrok]

I can honestly say that its taken me a loooong time of intense experimentation, practice, hearing the latest, greatest whoop-t-do gizmo (or so "everybody says") and settle in on what works for me and convince my wonderlustful eyes to shut up,do as you're told and watch the front sight. 

I guess my  self talk goes something like:   ten-HUT....eyes FRONT!!!...STOP DROOLING !!  Get your hands OUT of your pockets !!! 

[Douglas]

Oh also, I really like nut-n-fancy. He does a very good job in his reviews IMO. Very thorough. The only thing I don't relate to is that he doesn't really review from a EDC in a metro environment as much as in the desert on his really cool course decked out in fatigues. I really like him though.

That's funny. We're as urban as can be here, and I watch him run around out there and think, "How great would it be if I could just do that?"

But of course, you're right: covering the Bernie Goetz scenario, he ain't.

(-Who did, by the way, just fine with 5 rounds in a situation thirty years ago that was almost exactly what I described and is still the common one here today.) 

[the_skunk]

When my seecamp started coughing (crap ammo), then I bought a SW 642. Inaccurate, nasty recoil, and certainly no pocket gun. And it had to go to SW to replace a bad firing pin. I can see an auto going click, click, but not a revolver.

[tracker]

Keep in mind that Bernie Goetz fired a S&W.38 Special when they were high quality and well made revolvers. According to my expert gunsmith of 35 years the S&W revolver quality today, particularly the internals, is inferior to that of 30 or 40 years ago.

[the_skunk]

Keep in mind that Bernie Goetz fired a S&W.38 Special when they were high quality and well made revolvers. According to my expert gunsmith of 35 years the S&W revolver quality today, particularly the internals, is inferior to that of 30 or 40 years ago.

I have a 90 yr old Broomhandle, and the quality is amazing. The machine work was done before CNCs, or visual readouts. Today's guns are polymer, with stamped metal inserts. The old 1911s and Browning HPs are way past 50,000 rounds, and it's all minor repairs to keep them running.

The 1911s are still the gun of choice for SWAT, and any active agency.

[Douglas]

Keep in mind that Bernie Goetz fired a S&W.38 Special when they were high quality and well made revolvers. According to my expert gunsmith of 35 years the S&W revolver quality today, particularly the internals, is inferior to that of 30 or 40 years ago.

Perhaps.

My revolvers, Smith and Colt, have run between fifteen and forty-some years old. I wouldn't buy a new Smith with a lock for a number of reasons, but I wouldn't have much concern about a non-lock one made inside the last thirty years going bang when I pressed the trigger.

In Bernie's case, he certainly didn't ask anything particularly challenging from his snub; it's not like the shooting was after weeks in the desert or the jungle. I have no doubt that, with some time machine shenanigans, we could put a c.2000 model Bodyguard in his hands and the result would have been the same.

Even more (and admitting that I don't know what load Goetz used,) as a rule the ammunition available today is far superior to what was common then.

No, for me snub-related concerns center almost entirely on capacity. I expect it to fire, and I have no problem with accuracy, but on a two way range five shots doesn't inspire confidence.

As discussed, it probably is enough for personal protection, but oh boy, no one wants to find out the hard way that it wasn't. Something happened around here last night (I was not involved) that had me get up, toss the .38 and speed loader I was carrying back into the gun cabinet and pull out a Glock.

Who knows? You pays your money and you takes your chances, I guess.