Metcalf out!!!!!!!

[Jack_F]

http://www.gunsandammo.com/2013/11/06/response-december-2013-backpage-column/

His article     http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/Lets-Talk-Limits-by-Dick-Metcalf-of-Guns-Ammo-December-2013.pdf

In Ohio we have a 12 hour class requirement. There is a push to reduce it to 4 hours. I think it should remain 12 hours. This will be the ONLY training many people receive.

[MaxBlack]

Twelve hours would be deemed by many (including me) to be excessive, and a hardship.

In Texas we recently reduced the minimum class time to 4 hours from 10, without changing any of the requirements insofar as material to be covered or range time (yes we have an actual proficiency test requiring 50 rounds fired at 3 distances).

I don't disagree that even 12 hours is inadequate if indeed that is the "only training" someone ever gets, but OTOH twelve hours in one training session is going to be TMI to most people i.e. how much will be retained? IIRC our classroom instruction lasted 5 hours and we were all ready to get-out onto the range and get some fresh air for sure.

In the end, the hope has to be that anyone who is interested and concerned enough to spend the time and the money (after all it means a Pistol and/or Rental and ammo and instructor cost and State Licensing cost and travel and time and...) and then undergoes fingerprinting and the FBI check(s) is taking this seriously and will pursue "continuing education".

[Reinz]

I agree with both Jack and Max.

I'm in Texas and was licensed when the program began almost 20 yrs ago. Yeah, us gun guys can go at a much faster pace, as well as the younger folk usually. However, in my experience, I have seen that neophytes and seniors tend to need more time and attention.  It's tough, because, they are now in the "advanced" class.

I am fortunate in that I have "clepped out" .  Due to my consecutive runs, I did not have to go to class this year. I have to admit, I'm not sure if this is a good thing. Even though renewals were always a hassle, I always had some new take - a - ways.

Anytime you're dealing with the masses there never is a right answer.   And in the words of Wyatt Earp (TV), "if no one is complaining, you're not doing your job".  At least we have CHL/CCW!

[C0untZer0]

I'm an Illinois certified instructor, and the training requirement in Illinois is 16 hours, let me tell you as someone who has a lot to gain financially from the Illinois law -  it has nothing to do with training and everything to do with erecting as many barriers as possible to dissuade as many people as possible from exercising their right to self defense.

Lets be clear about what really happened here - anti-gun democrats wanted to put up as many hurdles as they possibly could to make it prohibitively expensive for as many people as possible to exercise the RIGHT of self defense, that incidentally handed a windfall to firearms instructors in Illinois. 

There are states in the United States that don't discriminate against their citizens like this and do you know what?  Things work out just fine, it doesn't turn into the Wild Wild West, people don't go around "accidentally" / negligently shooting themselves or others.

There is no study or statistic that shows that all this extra training piled on makes the public safer or anything like that - you can bet that if there were such a statistic the antis would have pushed for 40 hours of training anti-gunners did propose 40 hours of training in Illinois BTW.

I personally find it reprehensible that Illinois citizens have to pay so much for all of this to begin with - it's a poll tax.

[Reinz]

Count - I've heard about the dirty pool over the past few years in Chicago. It sounds to me like you got off easy with 16 hrs!  

Well at least it's a start and the maybe OUR Camel has it's nose in the tent for a change.

Bear with it, and make it better down the road.

[C0untZer0]

Some of the things the anti-gunners tried with training:

Forty hours of training

Training only to be conducted by Illinois trainers who were qualified to train armed guards - certified by the Illinois Department of Financial and Professional Regulation (only a few hundred instructors in the whole state)

Carry-permits would be firearms specific

So if you wanted to carry an R9, you would have to train and qualify and get a permit for the R9.  If you wanted a Seacamp as a BUG to the R9 - you would have to train and qualify and get a permit for the Seacamp.  Want to keep a Glock 22 in the console of your car - train and qualify with that too.

If you want to carry a 45 in the Winter -  train and qualify and get a permit for that gun too.

Someday you trade your Seacamp in and buy a  Rohrbaugh 380 -  you guessed it.

Thankfully we had enough pro 2A representatives and senators to vote that stuff down. Illinois carry ban had been ruled unconstitutional and the clock was ticking for when the CA7 stay of mandate expired, we would have had something very close to constitutional carry, so the anti-gunners fought tooth and nail on every point but we finally got a concealed carry bill passed.

We ended up with 16 hours of training the most of any state.

It's great for firearms instructors because the state is driving students into your classroom, but it's also wrong.

[MaxBlack]

Great posts C0unt, thanks for telling. I lived in IL for 10 years and the only things about it that I miss are the food (and tastesofchicago.com mostly fixes that)!

I should add that not only did Texas relax the hours required for CHL training, they also removed the gun-specific angle i.e. if you trained with a Revolver you could not carry a Semi-auto. Oh, and automatic knives are OK to carry now too, though I don't think they can have double-edged blades.

Reinz you do know that you can renew online now; no need to re-take a class.

Don't tell anyone about this please. We already have too many people wanting to move here.

 

[Reinz]

I renewed online, which was simple except for one point. They asked for test results. Which of course there aren't any since I was skipping class that THEY suggested Via letter.   Frustrating   

[MaxBlack]

Not sure I understand: you mean texas.gov i.e. the person at RSD got the requirements wrong? But you reminded them test results weren't needed and they concurred?

I can see there'd be some confusion given the rules changed only Sept or something like that. They haven't even posted a new CHL-16 document yet with the changes in the law.

You gotta love Texas--the Federal Government makes noise about gun control and the state legislators quickly make carrying a lot easier.

[Reinz]

The programers haven't adapted it yet for for folks who don't have to take the class. 

It's a catch 22. Online is the only way to renew if you bypass class. However, they want you to send in the forms from class.

To save confusion and guarantee continuity I sent a note along with my packet.

[tracker]

This glitch sounds relatively minor when compared to the ill-fated rollout of obamadon'tcare.

[Reinz]

This glitch sounds relatively minor when compared to the ill-fated rollout of obamadon'tcare.

HaHa, you got that right Tracker!

I believe my divorce that I am presently experiencing will seem minor compared to the anal intrusion of Obamacare and it's frag in the future.

[Richard S]

Reinz:

As one who has been through that "Big D" experience, I'm here as living proof that it can open the door for finally getting things right.  To use another country-song analogy, Joyce and I refer to it as a part of "that broken road" that led me straight to her.

Stay strong. 

[Reinz]

Thanks Richard 

I agree, it's good in my case as well, just disappointing after 35 yrs.

All the Stress is dealing with the attorney's!  As you know the incompetence is unbelievable!  Unless that is a game they play to increase billing.

[Richard S]

Thanks Richard 
* * *
All the Stress is dealing with the attorney's!  As you know the incompetence is unbelievable!  Unless that is a game they play to increase billing.

Reinz:

Unfortunately, that is a game too many attorneys play these days.  The sad fact, in my opinion, is that we simply have too many lawyers in today's environment.  Major universities use their law schools as centers for the generation of income and keep spewing out graduates.  Most of those graduates manage, somehow and eventually, to pass a Bar examination.  Add to that the increasing number of private law schools established and operating entirely as profit-making enterprises and you have a situation that is rapidly deteriorating.  In the major cities, law firms just get larger and larger.  Many of their associates can never hope to become partners.  As for what were once called "boutique law firms operated by extraordinary gentlemen," they have become almost extinct in our larger metropolitan areas.  Competition for clients is fierce.  And a profession that once banned advertising as unprofessional conduct now permits lawyers to compete with used car salesmen for the top spot in outrageous and ridiculous television, radio, and mass-transit advertisements. 

It is a sad situation.  There are so many lawyers hanging up shingles now that many simply go out of business.  Others, if they are lucky, retreat into the safe haven of government employment.  Once there, they must somehow justify their existence by dreaming up new statutes and regulations to govern the rest of us in whatever sphere of human conduct their agency happens to have jurisdiction.

And that brings us back to Jack's original post and the Count's response.  It would be safe to wager that behind all of those proposals to amend the statutory and regulatory provisions governing the issuance of carry permits are some lawyers hoping by their efforts to earn promotion in pay grade.

I know nothing, of course, about the attorneys in your case.  I speak merely from my own observation and concern over what I perceive to be a growing crisis of quality and competence in a profession of which I have been privileged to be a member since 1963. 

In any event, monitor your attorneys' work and hold them to the standards required by the rules governing professional conduct.  It is your money.  You deserve nothing less.

I wish you all the best.  As my sainted mother used to say, "This too shall pass."



_{[Edit:  Corrected typographical error.]}