Top round in magazine nose diving.

[Sgt127]

Every once in awhile, while shooting, a round stops dead on the feedramp.  Solid.  Like welded in place.  Smacking the back of the slide does nothing. 

Took awhile to figure out what was happening.  In playing with the magazines, I discovered that if there are more than three or four rounds in the magazine, I could push the nose of the top round down a little and it would "click" into place in a nose dive position. 

It looks like it moves forward a little and then pivots down, and, stays there.

In the down position, it is htting way low on the feedramp.

Pictures show the magazine and, then the mag in the gun showing its relationship to the barrel.

I'm reasonably sure it has the new mag springs. I'm ordering a couple new ones anyway.   Both mags do the same thing.  Is there a fix for this?  Is it a problem or did I find something that I think is a problem, but, isn't?

[Reinz]

Sarge - welcome to the forum.

It seems throughout my life and gun career many of mags from many autos have done this.  From 22's to 45's.  I have found that many times a simple fix was as easy as rapping the back of the mag against the palm of my hand.

However, I do believe for a carry gun I would want to get down to the root of the problem.

Please let us know what you come up with.

[Richard S]

And a welcome to the Forum from me as well.

One thought that comes to mind concerning the problem you describe is that your magazine spring just might be installed backward in the well. The loose end of the spring generally "points" the same direction as does the bullet when seated in the magazine.  I would remove the spring to insure that its upward-angled end is pointing toward the front of the magazine under the follower. (It goes without saying that you need to be careful in removing the base plate to prevent the spring from launching the inner plate across the room.) The following is a link to an illustrative photo of a 1911 mag spring being installed. (It is irrelevant to this discussion that the magazine in the photograph appears to be of the type with a welded base plate.)

http://www.bobtuley.com/45/magazine9.htm

[gunthorp]

The nesting of tapered cartridges requires more nose pressure to be exerted by the follower.  Even some straight walled calibers like the 45 auto can have a slight bulge in their midsection from the seated base of a hard bullet, or their case heads may expand from repeated reloading.  This also causes nose dives from the fist couple rounds.  Hollowpointed noses are especially prone to hanging up below the feed ramp.  The top edge of the case rim should be chamfered to avoid dragging on the round below it as the slide picks it up off the top of the magazine.  For reliable feeding, you should not be able to press down the front of the top round in the mag.  Any feed lip adjustments should be done by a gunsmith familiar with the model.  Let us know what you find out.

[ap1169]

My Rohrbaugh does the same thing as your pistol.  I checked the magazine spring and it is in correctly.  When you find out the issue, please let me know.  Thanks, Robert

[Sgt127]

I have no idea why its doing it.  I may order a new magazine and see.  Maybe these have loosened up a little or something.  I appreciate everyones comments.

[abboberg]

I have a Kahr PM9 and BOTH magazines do this - I have had the gun back to the factory once for this issue and it was not fixed.  My PM9 will not feed most styles of hollowpoints, but ball ammo seems to work fine.  If I were Rohrbaugh (or Kahr), I would re-design the magazine follower to compensate for any uneven sizing on the cartridges - there should definitely be a bias on the front of the follower so that the cartridges can never tip down no matter how barrel-shaped the ammo is.

[Richard S]

I have a Kahr PM9 and BOTH magazines do this - I have had the gun back to the factory once for this issue and it was not fixed.  My PM9 will not feed most styles of hollowpoints, but ball ammo seems to work fine.  If I were Rohrbaugh (or Kahr), I would re-design the magazine follower to compensate for any uneven sizing on the cartridges - there should definitely be a bias on the front of the follower so that the cartridges can never tip down no matter how barrel-shaped the ammo is.

Why, Mr. Boberg, what brings you over here to the Unofficial Rohrbaugh Firearms Forum? And besides, I thought you preferred your cartridges to "tip down," as you say, in the magazine. In any event, I have never had the problem occur with my R9 magazines in the eight years I have been carrying the pistol -- neither with FMJ nor with JHP ammunition. Proper insertion of the magazine spring and proper insertion of the cartridges -- in other words, attention to detail -- seems to result in a flawless R9 magazine. If something is not broken, I was taught in the Army not to try to "fix it."

Again to paraphrase your own words, "if I were Boberg" I might devote some attention to designing a cartridge that would be guaranteed never to have its bullet pulled when being extracted backward from a magazine.

[BlueC2]

I have a Kahr PM9 and BOTH magazines do this - I have had the gun back to the factory once for this issue and it was not fixed.  My PM9 will not feed most styles of hollowpoints, but ball ammo seems to work fine.  If I were Rohrbaugh (or Kahr), I would re-design the magazine follower to compensate for any uneven sizing on the cartridges - there should definitely be a bias on the front of the follower so that the cartridges can never tip down no matter how barrel-shaped the ammo is.

Why, Mr. Boberg, what brings you over here to the Unofficial Rohrbaugh Firearms Forum? And besides, I thought you preferred your cartridges to "tip down," as you say, in the magazine. In any event, I have never had the problem occur with my R9 magazines in the eight years I have been carrying the pistol -- neither with FMJ nor with JHP ammunition. Proper insertion of the magazine spring and proper insertion of the cartridges -- in other words, attention to detail -- seems to result in a flawless R9 magazine. If something is not broken, I was taught in the Army not to try to "fix it."

Again to paraphrase your own words, "if I were Boberg" I might devote some attention to designing a cartridge that would be guaranteed never to have its bullet pulled when being extracted backward from a magazine.

Just my opinion but I like that Arne reads and contributes to the forum. I don't have a Boberg or any real desire to get one but he seems like a knowledgeable guy who shares a passion for firearms.  As long as he isn't outright basing/trolling the forum I welcome his comments. Most designs have various aspects that can be improved upon - the R9 is a damn near perfect gun but I'm sure there are things that could be done to make it better. The same goes for Arne's design, it is very unique but as you pointed out there are things that can be improved upon there as well.

[sslater]

I agree with Reinz.  Part of my magazine loading routine is to rap the  back of the mag against my palm before inserting it in the gun.  That nose-down condition seems to be most likely to happen when I load one less round than max capacity.  (To lower stress on magazine spring.....hey, lots of 'experts' recommend that practice.)
Nowadays, especially with low capacity guns like the R9, I just load the max # of rounds and replace magazine springs regularly.  And I've found a magazine loaded to max capacity leaves little room for that top round to nose downward.

Steve   

[tracker]

There seems to be a disconnect here for some valid reason. My impression with the R9 magazine loaded to capacity is that the top round always seems to have an upward bias. The practice of downloading the magazine was a common practice of the SAS with the BHP, but I wouldn't consider doing that with the R9, nor have I ever seen it suggested. Back to the OP, he said that after loading three or four rounds he could push down and it would point nose down. Since I have always loaded to full capacity and not pushed down on an intermediate round there has never been an issue. If it don't fiddle, don't flip with it.

[abboberg]

I have a Kahr PM9 and BOTH magazines do this - I have had the gun back to the factory once for this issue and it was not fixed.  My PM9 will not feed most styles of hollowpoints, but ball ammo seems to work fine.  If I were Rohrbaugh (or Kahr), I would re-design the magazine follower to compensate for any uneven sizing on the cartridges - there should definitely be a bias on the front of the follower so that the cartridges can never tip down no matter how barrel-shaped the ammo is.

Why, Mr. Boberg, what brings you over here to the Unofficial Rohrbaugh Firearms Forum? And besides, I thought you preferred your cartridges to "tip down," as you say, in the magazine. In any event, I have never had the problem occur with my R9 magazines in the eight years I have been carrying the pistol -- neither with FMJ nor with JHP ammunition. Proper insertion of the magazine spring and proper insertion of the cartridges -- in other words, attention to detail -- seems to result in a flawless R9 magazine. If something is not broken, I was taught in the Army not to try to "fix it."

Again to paraphrase your own words, "if I were Boberg" I might devote some attention to designing a cartridge that would be guaranteed never to have its bullet pulled when being extracted backward from a magazine.

That was clever.  I'm sure glad I didn't say anything derogatory about a Rohrbaugh pistol.  Hmmm this is the Rohrbaugh Forum, right? Not the Firing Squad....err, I mean the Firing Line?

[Richard S]

I have a Kahr PM9 and BOTH magazines do this - I have had the gun back to the factory once for this issue and it was not fixed.  My PM9 will not feed most styles of hollowpoints, but ball ammo seems to work fine.  If I were Rohrbaugh (or Kahr), I would re-design the magazine follower to compensate for any uneven sizing on the cartridges - there should definitely be a bias on the front of the follower so that the cartridges can never tip down no matter how barrel-shaped the ammo is.

Why, Mr. Boberg, what brings you over here to the Unofficial Rohrbaugh Firearms Forum? And besides, I thought you preferred your cartridges to "tip down," as you say, in the magazine. In any event, I have never had the problem occur with my R9 magazines in the eight years I have been carrying the pistol -- neither with FMJ nor with JHP ammunition. Proper insertion of the magazine spring and proper insertion of the cartridges -- in other words, attention to detail -- seems to result in a flawless R9 magazine. If something is not broken, I was taught in the Army not to try to "fix it."

Again to paraphrase your own words, "if I were Boberg" I might devote some attention to designing a cartridge that would be guaranteed never to have its bullet pulled when being extracted backward from a magazine.

That was clever.  I'm sure glad I didn't say anything derogatory about a Rohrbaugh pistol.  Hmmm this is the Rohrbaugh Forum, right? Not the Firing Squad....err, I mean the Firing Line?

No, Mr. Boberg, I am not a member of a "Firing Squad" and am not a contributor to the Firing Line. And although I do not trust any semi-automatic pistol design that strips cartridges from a magazine on the slide's rearward stroke during recoil, I admire anyone who has the determination and commitment to bring new firearms to the market as you have done. Therefore, as a matter of courtesy, I have not felt it appropriate to post my opinions on the aforesaid design -- or for that matter any other comments -- on your forum, even though I have followed your forum with some interest.

However, I do remember this curiously gratuitous comment that you posted to the Guns America Magazine Blog during SHOT 2012:

Arne Boberg January 20, 2012 at 2:42 pm
From what I have learned handling the R9S is that it does not have a passive firing pin safety, so that means that it will most likely discharge when dropped from 6 feet onto concrete with muzzle down and one round in the chamber. That is probably why they recommend not carrying that way. While they put a very strong firing pin return spring in there, this will most likely not prevent the firing pin from hitting the primer when dropped from 6 feet. Such a high drop will simulate a 15-20 lb striker spring, and the dent in the primer would be similar to what you get in a Glock pistol. On the plus side, the odds of dropping the gun just that way are slim. 

http://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/rohrbaugh-firearms-at-shot-2012/

I suppose, therefore, that it is a matter of "trust, but verify," as one of my favorite Presidents once said.

_____

Postscript:

Your post quoted above was answered by Dr. Michael Ward as follows:

mike ward January 25, 2012 at 10:25 pm
Dear Mr Boberg,
As one of the principal owners of the company I would like to state to you that we have drop tested the R 9 to 12 feet by two independent companies (NY and CT) without incident. Furthermore, If you examined the firearm, you will see that there is a recessed hammer and there is no tension on the hammer/firing pin when in a passive mode. I would recommend contacting the office with any questions before you ‘speculate’ how the firearm functions since you obviously do not have accurate information. How people carry is their own choice- think of a semi automatic revolver. If you have any questions please do not hesistate to contact the office 631 242 3175

http://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/rohrbaugh-firearms-at-shot-2012/

You apparently did not elect to respond.

[Douglas]

 


 

[thor447]

Wow, Mr. Boberg here on the Rohrbaugh Forum.  Honored and yet confused at the same time!!  Glad you are here sir and you have my compliments sir with regards to your firearm.  Brilliant in design and construction.   I am a new owner and thoroughly pleased thus far.  It cannot and will not take the place of my R9S, as I have grown to love that firearm, but it is quickly earning it's place along side of it.  It may not mean much to others or to you sir, but that is one of the highest compliments I can make towards a firearm!  Glad you're here.


p.s.  Just curious, is it a 'Keep your friends close, but your enemies closer - thing?  lol.   Only kidding.