How many rounds between cleanings?

[billmc]

2nd trip to the range yesterday, didn't go to well.  As a result, I've got more questions.

I took 2 pistols to the range yesterday, an XDm-45 compact and the R9.  I put about 100 rounds through the XD before putting it away and changing to the R9.  I've only had the R9, just about a week now.  The day I bought it (I wasn't keeping track) I shot maybe 4 - 6 magazines of Federal 115 gr target loads.  I haven't done anything to the R9, no cleaning or disassemble, and yesterday using the same ammo started having trouble on the 3rd mag.  (What's the difference between failure to extract, FTE and a stovepipe?)

On the 3rd round, from the 3rd mag, the slide was held partially open, I could see the brass still in the chamber, and another round was trying to load from the mag.  The bullet was touching the bottom of the brass still in the chamber.

I had a hell of a time trying to get the magazine out so I could clear the weapon, I really needed 3 hands.  Using my pocket knife, I was eventually able to gain enough leverage, with the pistol on the bench pointing down range, to hold back the mag release and get the mag past the mag release, after that it came out fine.  The "next" round, the one pressing its nose against the brass, came out with the mag.  I cleared the gun and reloaded it from the same magazine.  Fired and had the exact same thing happen again, including several minutes working to get the magazine out enough so that it would move past the mag release.

Now I know you guys keep saying that this needs special treatment, likes some ammo more than others, and needs to be kept clean.  I'm shooting the Federal ammo at the moment, because that's what I got.  (This range did have some Golden Saber 147 gr, which I picked up on the way out.)

So I guess my question would be, what has been the maximum number of rounds you've fired before cleaning and if there was a time separation in there, how long between cleanings and firings, and have you seen problems similar to what I'm describing?

Bill

[Reinz]

Sorry that you had a rough go of it there Bill.

One thing you did not mention was, if you stripped the pistol down and lubed it before the very first range session or not.  Just curious.

A stovepipe is a failure to eject; the casing extracted from the chamber, but failed to fully eject.  It is evidenced by the slide trapping it  in a vertical fashion looking like a stovepipe.  Stovepipes are "usually" caused by lack of a solid grip /shooting platform.

As far as rounds fired between cleaning?  Everyone has their own feelings of such.  However, since these guns run on tighter tolerances, I'm sure most would agree that their "norm" would be less in this instance.   And even more so if this an Every Day Carry (EDC).
I have gone to the range and fired 100 rounds without incident.  But this doe not necessarily mean that the same gun would react the same if I did 50 one day and 50 the next week.  Over a weeks time gun powder residue, dirt and oil can "cake up" and cause problems.
I shoot  2-3 mags, I clean it.  Because the gun may be carried the next day and my life may depend on it.  If it were just a range gun, I'd go 50-75 rounds.  It depends, every gun is different.  You will have to fiqure out "your" own max.

Your situation may have been caused by Break -in.
During break-in the slide/barrel/frame mesh together so to speak and grind in a little and actually shave a little metal off at certain points on the frame.  This causes friction, friction slows down the slide.  Now the speed of the rounds in the magazine remain the same.  This may be why you had a failure to extract.       The next round got there too quick (even though on time) and jammed against the empty cartridge not allowing it to extract.

This may also been caused by lack of lube.
Why did the lube go away between last week and this week?  One, there was just enough.  Two, Heat, the heat from the final shots dissapted the last bit of lube left.
This is why I was wondering if you broke your gun down and lubed it before the first range session.

Hope this helps

Shoot Straight

[Faawrenchbndr]

Sounds as if a bit of lube would have helped this.

[billmc]

No guys, I haven't done anything to the gun other than fire it.  I took it out of the box, put some cartridges in it, and pulled the trigger.  I was traveling when I bought it, it didn't come with the manual, so I just loaded it and shot it.  Once I got home, I've downloaded the manual and lube guide and have spoken with Maria, she'll be sending me them in print.

This is still during break in.  I deliberately did not clean it from last week.  I'd like to find out what will happen.  I guess I'm starting to find out.  I do plan on cleaning and lubing it now, before I shoot it again.

As far as the break in goes, can somebody tell me if there is a "standard" number of rounds fired before it is considered to be broken in?  I understand that this isn't meant to be a "regular" range gun, but for pistols in general, I've seen various recommendations, anywhere from 250 to 1000 rounds to be fired, before depending on it to carry.  I guess that would be between 2 to 5 springs worth.  Would anyone like to comment or recommend a number for this particular gun?

[Richard S]

* * *
Now I know you guys keep saying that this needs special treatment, likes some ammo more than others, and needs to be kept clean.  I'm shooting the Federal ammo at the moment, because that's what I got.  (This range did have some Golden Saber 147 gr, which I picked up on the way out.)

So I guess my question would be, what has been the maximum number of rounds you've fired before cleaning and if there was a time separation in there, how long between cleanings and firings, and have you seen problems similar to what I'm describing?

Bill

Bill:

As noted above, it sounds as if you were breaking in a "dry" gun. The R9, like a Swiss chronometer, has minimal tolerances. It needs to be kept clean and adequately lubricated.

The maximum number of rounds I have put through my R9 at one session (i.e., without stopping to clean the piece) was 67, if memory serves. However, I clean and lubricate it after every use, even if it involved firing only one magazine in order to update the carry ammunition.

[Reinz]

As far as the break in goes, can somebody tell me if there is a "standard" number of rounds fired before it is considered to be broken in?  I understand that this isn't meant to be a "regular" range gun, but for pistols in general, I've seen various recommendations, anywhere from 250 to 1000 rounds to be fired, before depending on it to carry.  I guess that would be between 2 to 5 springs worth.  Would anyone like to comment or recommend a number for this particular gun?

Assuming that you have the bugs ironed out, I think 200-250 is a fair number- or one springs worth.

For EDC, I will not carry any gun until it performs for at least 200 consecutive rounds without a single malfunction.  That is just me.  I don't know how others feel, it is a personal, subjective thing.  It doesn't matter if it's el cheapo Kel-Tec in my gym shorts ,a high dollar 1911 on my belt , and everything in between.   They all MUST pass the test.

[tracker]

That is a good rule and to each his own comfort zone in reliability confidence. Unlike Kahr, there is no "break-in" round count with the R9 but a word to the wise is sufficient. As stated many times here: clean and lube prior to the first range session; clean and lube after each practice session no matter how many rounds fired in a day. As to the 200 rd. spring change, depending on the relative spring length, I may go slightly more or less. A couple of spring turns is enough for me to change it but it is like auto oil changes--why not err on the conservative side?

[Ghost Chili]

I went out for a second range session today with my shooting buddy.  Between the two of us, approximately 120 rounds were fired out of my R9.  Ammo was 2 boxes of the bottom rung Russian Silver Bear steel cased surplus stuff and a box of 124gr. Gold Dots.  My R9 performed flawlessly and was pretty filthy afterwards.  The cheapo ammo burns dirty.  Probably is corrosive too.  I always do a thorough cleaning after every range trip - especially my carry guns.  So I have had a max of 120 rounds through my R9 in one session without cleaning and zero malfunctions.  The gun started fresh and clean and had a light coat of lube on all mating surfaces.  I imagine the original spring is worn out by now.  Probably should change it after the next session.

[Reinz]

There ya go!  That's how ya do it.

And may I welcome you Ghost Chili, to the forum as well.

Thanks for sharing.

[billmc]

Assuming that you have the bugs ironed out, I think 200-250 is a fair number- or one springs worth.

For EDC, I will not carry any gun until it performs for at least 200 consecutive rounds without a single malfunction.  That is just me.  ....  They all MUST pass the test.

Rienz - Let me ask you a question.  Your number of rounds without a failure, to me, seems reasonable, but after 200 rounds you need to replace the spring.  Does this change anything in the # of rounds equation?  Maybe I'm just making it more difficult than this needs to be, but with other guns, the parts would still be the same.  If this gun needs to be cared for the way you guys describe to me, I'm thinking that spring is a major piece of the puzzle?  On the other side of the coin, though, if I need to start again from 0, I'd never be able to consider it "tested"

See, I think way to much, its starting to hurt again; I need to stop it.

[Reinz]

Bill - you may or may not be carrying things too far.  It is YOUR life, so who can criticize?

I have not worried about fresh springs in the past.  To me they have just been a constant feature that always works.  But you do bring up an interesting point.  Maybe a fresh spring should be tested with at least one or two mags.

I know that when I change even the smallest thing on my match guns, I don't dare shoot a competition without a test first.  Why shouldn't I do the same for a carry gun?

Thanks! 

BTW - don't freak out when you clean you gun after just two mags and you see that the new recoil spring already shrunk 1-1 1/2 coils.

[tracker]

This thought process can be taken to the extreme, e.g., how does one know that the last magazine loaded will fire properly? At some point there is a limit to the assurance and confidence in the equipment. 

[Reinz]

Ha Ha, you are so right! 

But I can not tell you how many competitions are lost by just changing out a simple ordinary part and not testing.  It invaribly fails.  Not just me, but many competitors will tell you this.
And of course, our competition guns are not stock, but highly tuned Ferraris.  But isn't that what we say of our dearly beloved?

I'm just playing Devils Advocate here for food for thought. 

The comp guns are stretched to the max.   One little tweak to the right or left is perils.   I know the R9 is more forgiving than a comp gun.   

But folks do have to realize it's not a drop in the mud gun like a Glock, Sig, Smith, 1911.......

[Ghost Chili]

There ya go!  That's how ya do it.

And may I welcome you Ghost Chili, to the forum as well.

Thanks for sharing.

No problem!  Thanks for the welcome!  I was very surprised the R9 was able to handle the cheapo ammo because my buddy's STI Spartan would choke on it from time to time.  Even my Para would occasionally fail to extract.  Think it has something to do with the lacquer they use on the steel cases for rust prevention.  I figured if the R9 could work its way through 2 boxes of that ammo and a 20rd. box of Gold Dots without a hiccup, it is truly ready to go.  It really boosted my confidence in the little R9 that it could run pretty much everything that was labelled 9mm.  So far, I've got about 220 rounds through the pistol and the only failures were in firing due to hard primers in certain ammo, but they all fired on the second strike.  I think it has proven itself to be a very reliable pistol. 

200 rounds without a failure is not that extreme of a figure, in my opinion.  More than ammo testing in the gun, I think the 200 rounds you would fire with that particular pistol also serves to train yourself to be familiar with that pistol.  With quality ammo, I think pretty much any gun should be able to fire 200 rounds with little to no problems.  The biggest hurdle to me would be handling the gun in a high stress situation.  I like to drill myself in drawing and pointing, jam clearing, and reloading so that those actions can become second nature.  I often will purposely handload some dummy rounds and toss them in with my bag of live ammo and give it a shake.  I find the random dud round really helps me in quickly clearing the gun and returning to action. 

I love how tiny the R9 is and how nicely it carries in the pocket.  I am a bit fastidious in my ways of practicing with my weapons and like to shoot my carry guns often to maintain familiarity.  Suppose I just may have to get a second R9 - one for training and one as carry. 

 

[Reinz]

GC - I like your training discipline and the way you think.