Let Me See If I Can Word This Correctly....

[Reinz]

Ok here we go again under the subject of FTF and FTE. 

Images and concepts just pop into my mind, so I hope I can explain THIS thought.   

It's basically along the lines of break in.  We have all seen the tiny shavings in our R9's from the gun "setteling in" or breaking in so to speak.

If you think about it; this is a grinding force, much more friction than normal.  This is why it is SO VERY IMPORTANT for a new gun to be very well lubricated and held with a more than EXTRA firm grip than usual during break in.

Picture the slide while it is grinding or shaving metal.  It is "skipping" or trying to put the brakes on.  This is naturally going to cause a FTF(feed) or FTE unless held extra firm.  And sometimes the grip  just won't matter if the "bite" in the metal is too harsh.

So I say, during break-in, don't get bent, if there are a FEW problems (Assuming recommended ammo is used).  However, if after 150-200 rounds, they continue, then lets investigate the problem.  However, if problematic, that's a different story.

Any Thoughts ?

[JR956678]

Any Thoughts ?

I think you raise a very good point and I've made similar observations. I suspect the slide and barrel of the R9 are most likely the smallest and lightest of any firearm chambered for 9mm and the brothers Rohrbaugh have taken steps in the lug on the barrel and pocket in the frame to take some of what is a pretty violent impact off the slide stop pin itself and transfer some of it into the frame. It's the area where the barrel contacts the frame that we see this "self limiting" wear during break in, and that creates the shavings we're all familiar with. Once the barrel has worn the frame until it conforms perfectly the wear stops.

Those shavings float around in a mechanism built to very tight tolerances, and a small amount of shavings can impede the chambering of the next round or the proper extraction of the previous. Until this break in stops and the shavings have been removed (though normal cleaning) the firearm is more prone to a FTF or FTE.

While I think it's always important to shoot an R9 with a firm grip - during break in it's even more important.

[MRC]

We still have to face the fact that some R9's just do not work out ot the bpx.  My first R9 would not function with any ammo I tried.  Three of us shot it it it failed for all of us on every magazine.  We were not beginners, I had a PM9 and the other two shooters owned PF9's which worked for them.

My second R9 has been flawless with at least 7 different kinds of ammo for me so it is not all operator problems with these pistols.

[Richard S]

Reinz:

In my opinion, you are spot on, as usual, with your analysis. The R9s are hand assembled at the factory by or under the watchful eyes of the Brothers Rohrbaugh and test fired to insure reliability before they leave the door. The chances of one being defective when it leaves the factory are infinitesimal. With proper lubrication, with suitable ammunition, and with the owner doing his or her part, the R9 will function as designed -- first time, every time.

These pistols are the "Ferrari Berlinettas" of the pocket pistol world, not the "John Deere Tractors."

[Robar233]

Reinz,

 I second the agreement you are 100% correct!

 But I have to know, who makes the double magazine pouch in the picture? I am still waiting, waiting, and waiting for one to be made for me.

 Thanks,

 Robar233

[Z]

Ok here we go again under the subject of FTF and FTE. 

Images and concepts just pop into my mind, so I hope I can explain THIS thought.   

It's basically along the lines of break in.  We have all seen the tiny shavings in our R9's from the gun "setteling in" or breaking in so to speak.

If you think about it; this is a grinding force, much more friction than normal.  This is why it is SO VERY IMPORTANT for a new gun to be very well lubricated and held with a more than EXTRA firm grip than usual during break in.

Picture the slide while it is grinding or shaving metal.  It is "skipping" or trying to put the brakes on.  This is naturally going to cause a FTF(feed) or FTE unless held extra firm.  And sometimes the grip  just won't matter if the "bite" in the metal is too harsh.

So I say, during break-in, don't get bent, if there are a FEW problems (Assuming recommended ammo is used).  However, if after 150-200 rounds, they continue, then lets investigate the problem.  However, if problematic, that's a different story.

Any Thoughts ?

+1. I could not agree more.
I have experienced a lot of problems with another Manufacters gun before I switched to the PUP.
I have owned around 12 PUPs over the past few years. I have shot all of them except 2 and have not experienced the problems that have come up more recently.

The first thing I do is clean and lubricate the gun. On my EDC gun I disassemble and lubricate it every other week. The lubrication and ammo choice I feel has led to the a trouble free experience for me.

I will say the troubles could be shooting style, experience with the R9 or maintenance.
I had to give up another manufactures gun because of the troubles I had.
It may be the same for some on the new R9 owners. I say give the PUP a chance, follow the recommendations of the forum on ammo and maintenance and see what happens.

[Reinz]

Reinz,

 

  who makes the double magazine pouch in the picture?

 Robar233

Howdy Robar - That pouch is a Graham.   I believe he quit doing holsters, I hope I am wrong.  I love this holster for comfort not for carrying two mags.  It  just does not shift in the pocket, so IF I ever really do NEED to use it, I know exactly where the mag will be when I need it.

[Reinz]

The first thing I do is clean and lubricate the gun. On my EDC gun I disassemble and lubricate it every other week. The lubrication and ammo choice I feel has led to the a trouble free experience for me.

Interesting -  I believe I have read that Richard S does this weekly.  Please correct me if I am wrong.

Here we have two very experienced members/shooters excercising due discipline which apparantly pays off!

[Reinz]

I will say the troubles could be shooting style, experience with the R9 or maintenance.
I had to give up another manufactures gun because of the troubles I had.
It may be the same for some on the new R9 owners. I say give the PUP a chance, follow the recommendations of the forum on ammo and maintenance and see what happens.

Wise words

[yankee2500]

Reinz,

 

  who makes the double magazine pouch in the picture?

 Robar233

Howdy Robar - That pouch is a Graham.   I believe he quit doing holsters, I hope I am wrong.  I love this holster for comfort not for carrying two mags.  It  just does not shift in the pocket, so IF I ever really do NEED to use it, I know exactly where the mag will be when I need it.

unfortunately Ron's holster site is gone and I don't believe he is making holsters any more or at least not selling holsters.
His holster forum is still up but not active that I can see. http://grahamholsterforum.yuku.com/

Here is a recent post and George's (Admin.) reply

Very sad, he had some great holsters.


Just stopped by to say hello.
Hope Ron looks in from time to time.

GeorgeH
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 Posts: 1898
(03/26/11 10:31:01)
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I hope so. He hasn't responded to my e-mails for a year now.

[C0untZer0]

Does that help at all or is it only the force of actual rounds being fired that will accomplish any break in?

Or what about hand cycling the slide with something like a very fine polish or lapping compound?

[Robar233]

Reinz & George,

 Thanks for the scoop on the mag pouch. It really does look like a good design. I can see that the flare at the bottom would keep it in place. I am sorry Graham is no longer in business. May be someone will copy the design?

 Robar233

[JR956678]

Does that help at all or is it only the force of actual rounds being fired that will accomplish any break in?

Or what about hand cycling the slide with something like a very fine polish or lapping compound?

It's my opinion that this would not help. There's only a very slight (minimal) break in between the slide and the frame - this is fit very well at the factory and all I see there is a slight polishing and some removal of the black frame coating in a few places. The bulk of the break in occurs where the barrel and the lug on the bottom of the barrel contact the frame.

As I look at the design of the R9 I see it to be a little different than most pistols. In most pistols the brunt of the force of stopping the slide at its most rearward position is carried by the slide stop pin and transferred into the frame by the slide stop pin, but the R9 is not exactly that way. On an R9 a barrel lug fits into a pocket in the frame and its downward motion is stopped by contact with the frame itself. This makes all the sense in the world to me as it changes the role of the slide stop pin from a part that would bear huge loads to only a guide to the barrel which unlocks the breach by camming the barrel downward disengaging it from the slide.

I believe this clever bit of design is what allows the R9 to be small and narrow and light and not self destruct by hammering the fit of the slide stop pin into the frame and opening up the fit.

The violence of this action couldn't be duplicated by hand cycling as you'd never be able to reach the velocities by hand that are reached during firing. In my own rather limited experience it seems as though this break in process happens during the first box or two of ammo and then stops as the barrel has by this time "bedded" itself in the frame, spreading the loads out over a larger area.

Occasionally I suspect the small amount of shavings generated are responsible for locking up the pistol when they get into some place they aren't supposed to be but for the most part a good cleaning or two early on gets rid of them before they can cause problems, leaving you with a properly broken in R9 that's GTG for a long service life.

[Richard S]

Does that help at all or is it only the force of actual rounds being fired that will accomplish any break in?

Or what about hand cycling the slide with something like a very fine polish or lapping compound?

It's my opinion that this would not help. There's only a very slight (minimal) break in between the slide and the frame - this is fit very well at the factory and all I see there is a slight polishing and some removal of the black frame coating in a few places. The bulk of the break in occurs where the barrel and the lug on the bottom of the barrel contact the frame.

As I look at the design of the R9 I see it to be a little different than most pistols. In most pistols the brunt of the force of stopping the slide at its most rearward position is carried by the slide stop pin and transferred into the frame by the slide stop pin, but the R9 is not exactly that way. On an R9 a barrel lug fits into a pocket in the frame and its downward motion is stopped by contact with the frame itself. This makes all the sense in the world to me as it changes the role of the slide stop pin from a part that would bear huge loads to only a guide to the barrel which unlocks the breach by camming the barrel downward disengaging it from the slide.

I believe this clever bit of design is what allows the R9 to be small and narrow and light and not self destruct by hammering the fit of the slide stop pin into the frame and opening up the fit.

The violence of this action couldn't be duplicated by hand cycling as you'd never be able to reach the velocities by hand that are reached during firing. In my own rather limited experience it seems as though this break in process happens during the first box or two of ammo and then stops as the barrel has by this time "bedded" itself in the frame, spreading the loads out over a larger area.

Occasionally I suspect the small amount of shavings generated are responsible for locking up the pistol when they get into some place they aren't supposed to be but for the most part a good cleaning or two early on gets rid of them before they can cause problems, leaving you with a properly broken in R9 that's GTG for a long service life.

JR:

You also have "broken the code," as it were. Thank you for posting that analysis.

The following is a link to an early set of still photographs from the FAQ site created by "R9SCarry" showing Eric Rohrbaugh take down, clean/lubricate, and reassemble the R9. Some things have changed since those photographs were taken, such as a redesign of the main recoil spring and perhaps more emphasis on the use of oil and less on grease, but pages 4-9 of the PDF link are illustrative of the importance of proper lubrication of the barrel-lug/pistol-frame interface.

http://www.thingameez.com/download-pdf/r9-eric-stills.pdf

After owning and carrying my R9 since May 2004 while closely following this Forum, it is my firm belief that nearly every complaint posted about the R9 can be traced to one of three causes: (1) improper cleaning/lubrication of the pistol; (2) the use of inferior ammunition; or (3) a "limp wristed" grip by the shooter. It's that simple.

"RS out."

[Reinz]

Reinz & George,

  May be someone will copy the design?

 Robar233

Robar - Robert at Meco has come across to me as very accomodating.  I am positive that he will build it for you if you provide the photos - or rather, I can provide them for you if you wish.