I take it that the Rohrbaugh booth at SHOT does not display an R45.......

[flyandscuba]

Price is not established yet, but will be north of $2,000 and probably north of $2,500.

To call the R45 a competitor to the Glock or Kahr is like calling the R-9 a competitor to the Diamondback DB9.  Think more like Les Baer or Wilson Combat...

Well, my flawless early production DB9 did replace my early production R9S in my pocket as an EDC deep cover pistol...  The weight, width, and 100% flawless operation out of the box through 250 rounds convinced me that it was self defense reliable.

Don't get me wrong, I did like the jewel-like precision craftsmanship of the R9S -- but equal functionality with less weight and smaller footprint (as well as a fraction of the cost) pushed me over the edge to make the change.

If Arne Boberg's attempt to created a precision true "pocket pistol" in .45 caliber the size of the R9S by utilizing the 45GAP's shorter OAL is successful, I will be ordering one.

I don't think a DAO all-metal single stack .45 -- even in the quality of the Rohrbaugh brother's well established reputation -- would cause me to spend $2500+ to replace my Glock G36, G29SF, or G39.  But, I wish them success in the effort!

[DDGator]

I understand that.  There is a decent argument to be made that a Kel-Tec P11 is just as much gun as a Sig P239 (or maybe the new P224) at a third of the price -- and on paper, that is probably right.  But no one would confuse the two in a dark room! 

Boberg's ideas are interesting.  I don't understand why they don't come to the SHOT Show? 

[flyandscuba]

Boberg's ideas are interesting.  I don't understand why they don't come to the SHOT Show?

His operation is currently much smaller than the Rohrbaugh's.  He has a huge waiting list for the XR-9S, that is in production now.  He's trying to get 60-80 pistols per month completed and in the hands of those on his waiting list.  I'm in the queue -- and I don't expect my number to come up for a year or so.

I think that he felt his time was better served working to get pistols out the door, rather than increasing his waiting list by exhibiting at SHOT Show this year.  As he adds staff, maybe he'll make it next year.  The .45 GAP project is at least two years out -- if he can make it work with his design.

[DDGator]

I think the SHOT Show is almost required for a serious manufacturer.  You can never have too much interest in your product.  But more importantly, you make contacts with others in the industry--grip suppliers, holster makers, parts suppliers, etc.  They should make a point to go.  Even Rohrbaugh has to shut the plant down for a week to attend the show.

[MRC]

This is just my opinion.

Arne Boberg is doing a fine job of marketing and Rohrbaugh could take a few lessons from him.  They botched this R45 deal completely I think by not hinting at what their plans were.  Boberg has concept videos out before production and answers questions from "his customers" himself.  He is now getting input by what "his customers" would like to see in a 45 cal.

A company sets their"Brand" and tries follow it.  Keltec makes low priced but very functional firearms and they have stayed with that premise. Seecamp has prided itself on their "minaturization"of firearms with very fine craftsmanship and stuck to the brand.

Rohrbaugh established its self as a high end producer of self defense pocket carried firearms and has been quite successful at it.  They announce a 45 cal and let "their customers" speculate on what to expect instead of announcing their intentions and prove to disappoint them and then act supprised.

Maria does a fine job, but Karl and Eric need to get a little closer to the market like Arne Boberg.

[DDGator]

MRC,

I am not sure I agree with you -- from a marketing/business perspective.  Or at least -- I see the other side of the coin. 

Rohrbaugh has essentially made one gun to date -- the R9.  (The R380 really doesn't count...it's just a detune of the R9  ).  To say they have established their niche as a pocket pistol maker seems a bit premature.  I think Karl would say that his intent is to establish himself as a high-end, or even semi-custom, pistol maker.

From a business perspective, what happens if they develop a tiny pocket-sized R45?  Doesn't it cannibalize their own market for the R9?  How many people are going to carry an R9 in one pocket and an R45 in another?  R9 sales may theoretically slow down (no end to demand in sight yet, but...) because people decide the R45 is better than the R9, right?

(Don't even get me started on whether .45 ACP is really the right choice for a pocket gun.  I am not sure that it is...but that is a different topic).

On the other hand, what if Rohrbaugh sets out to make a high quality semi-custom compact (but not subcompact or pocket) pistol?  Existing customers who love their pocket guns may branch out to an R45 as a better "primary" carry gun.  Customers wind up with a Rohrbaugh in their pocket and a Rohrbaugh on their belt... Pretty cool.  And, you attract a whole new line of customers who don't want a pocket gun at all, but like finely crafted pistols.

Since you mention Kel-Tec, let's use them as an example.  They created the P-11 -- a subcompact 9mm.  Then the P-32 and P-3AT.  Where they a pocket gun company?  Then they created a pistol caliber carbine, then a true carbine, then a bullpup battle rifle, then a 30 round plinker gun, then a combat shotgun... etc.   Clearly KT's plan was to have a gun in every category of self-defense related armament, right?  So how is this any different?  The R9 is a pocket gun.  The R45 will be a belt gun.  The next Rohrbaugh model may be a full-size single action 1911, right?

I don't think any of this is willy-nilly.  If it turns out they just can't sell the R45 -- then I will chalk it up to a miscalculation on their part.  But feedback from the SHOT Show (even with full knowlede of the price range) was very positive.

So, I don't think anything was botched.  As for Arne Boberg, I met him briefly but do not know him.  I applaud his innovation.  However, I think its a little too early to decide whether the Boberg company is a success or not.

[MRC]

Thanks for the reply DD

If you read my first paragrph, I say they botched it by announcing a year before they introduce the prototype and let speculation run wild on what it would be.  All I read was micro- compact 45 or a 1911.  If you or the Brothers would have nipped this speculation in the bud and came out with their true intentions it could have gotten a warm welcome here also.  I have not heard anyone on the forum saying

              " Boy, I can hardly wait"

If Boberg brings out a micro-compact 45 GAP it probably would hurt Rohrbaugh's R9 business just as much as a micro-compact R45 would with the sales going elsewhere.  I see a micro 9mm and a micro 45 as two different products entirely.

I still think that if Rohrbaugh does not step up their marketing they will be sitting around the shop wondering where their business went.

[DDGator]

Well, we can see you are darned if you do, and darned if you don't right?  There are lots of advantages and disadvantages to releasing information early.  Its not entirely clear to me which is the way to go.

Personally, I am not sure how many people are really going to like a micro-compact .45 -- GAP or otherwise.  I think it will be great if you don't actually shoot it much.  The R9 is already a handful for a lot of people.  Plus, it will be interesting to see what .45 GAP does balistically from a 3" barrel.

The problem with always going for smaller and lighter is that everyone plays that game.  Then they make their guns out of polymer too -- to make them cheaper.  Would an R45 pocket pistol be functionally different than a Kahr PM45?  I think the pocket 45 already exists, and those who really want one can buy it today.

Rohrbaugh can't try and complete with Kahr and Kel-Tec and Springfield.  They are better off staying in the high end market where they can distinguish themselves and make a little better profit margin.

[Jack_F]

When I think high end,  I think......Baer.....Brown......Nighthawk...Wilson........If they sell the R45 for $2500 +- they have a long way to go to match up...JMO

[TpaBayFlyFisher]

I love the debate.  But, small high quality .45s are already available.  Wilson Combat, Les B., make great 1911s, and Sig makes super DA/SA peices in .45. Heck even the Kimber Ultras that followed me home are well worth the money as carry guns.  But, the R9 is THE pocket handgun.  Will an R45 be another quality carry 45?  Given Rohrbaugh's track record, sure.  But, that niche is well populated and most would need something "more" to induce purchase.  Now if there was a premium pocket .45, many including myself would be ready to buy. In fact, that has been what has driven most of the talk here, not the hope of ANOTHER quality belt gun..............

[TpaBayFlyFisher]

OH, and as for marketing, why would one think that any message board is where a manufacturer would mold it's image?  Youtube or the gun mags sure, but trying to say that the brothers should correct our impressions probably is unrealistic.

[MRC]

I am not saying this is where they should mold their image.  But where are they?  A monthly five word ad in American Handgunner, three days at the Shot Show once a year, Maria on the phone?  Most Gun Store owners have never heard of Rohrbaugh.

You 'brand' your company by what you make and how you market it.  They are known for well made pocket guns and that is their 'brand'.  If they want to be known as a "High end Gun maker" they will have to market themselves better than they are now.

Would you say this unveiling was a big success so far?

I have to add, I like the way Arrne Boberg is starting out.  The CCW crowd is not all that huge that you can't market it in a casual and personal way.

[flyandscuba]

Plus, it will be interesting to see what .45 GAP does balistically from a 3" barrel.

Would an R45 pocket pistol be functionally different than a Kahr PM45?  I think the pocket 45 already exists, and those who really want one can buy it today.

With the G39's 3.43" barrel, I think that we can safely predict what the ballistics would be from the 3.10" barrel of the Boberg in 45 GAP.

The Kahr PM45 is a larger pistol.  Look again, the Boberg XR-45 is essentially the same footprint as the Rohrbaugh R9S.  That is a huge difference in "pocketability" compared to the Kahr PM45...



As much as the "GAP-haters" wish it wasn't true -- the difference in OAL between the ACP and the GAP makes all the difference when considering a small,  truly pocket-capable pistol in .45 caliber.  Remember the 3.1" barrel of the Kahr PM45 actually has less rifled barrel length than would the 3.1" barrel of the Boberg - due to the longer porton of the barrel consisting of the unrifled chamber required with the ACP cartridge. 

I might even predict that the 45 GAP out of the Boberg would actually produce better ballistics than the 45 ACP out of the Kahr PM45! Probably not by much, but it shouldn't be less...

[abboberg]

Comment deleted - a bit off topic.

[tracker]

Nice, Arne, but what is the relevance to the R-45?