Reversable Outer Recoil Spring

[gr8guns]

Why build a recoil spring that is different at each end?
http://www.rohrbaughforum.com/YaBB.cgi?board=R9S;action=display;num=1097793265
It is just begging to be put in the wrong way and malfunction at a lethally critical moment.

Whether one end of the spring is "live" or not is not the question or the answer.  There is no engineering reason why that spring cannot be redesigned with both ends being closed so the spring is reversible, and designed in a manner that the spring will still have the properties required by the gun and recoil.

The problem with making something idiot proof is that idiots are so darn clever.   The answer is always KISS and make-over.

[RJ HEDLEY]

I see your point, but there is no way to avoid everything an ''idiot' may or not do.  
 
The magazine also has a "Orientation" problem for the spring..

[logical]

A finished end on both ends of the spring would be more simple but the gun would have to be slightly longer.

[R9SCarry]

gr8guns ... welcome.

There is indeed good reason for this and I wish I had the exact words to quote that I have had from Eric, Karl maybe as well.

It is best summed up as compromize and probably has to be concerned most with avoidance of coil binding - as well as achieving the exact rate required.

While it is nice for anything mechanical to be ''idiot-proof'' I really do not think this is that much of a problem.  There are two options - right way and wrong way.  All anyone has to do on reassembly is check up to be sure.

I have hammered this aspect home thru some items on my FAQ site, plus, if we are going to place life dependence on a firearm, the very process of reassembly after field strip should be thought out and meticulous, regardless.  

We are not here talking about ''idiot-proofing'' a firearm as might be done in the military.

[gr8guns]

I do appreciate your replies and the courtesy you have shown to what might have been perceived as an arrogant comment.

As an engineer, my experience is that there are many ways to design things, especially springs.  Perhaps it is not as easy as selecting an existing spring from a catalog, but there are so many parameters that can be adjusted on a spring that I find it difficult to accept that the gun must be made longer in order to finish both ends of the spring.

IMHO, sooner or later, someone will live or die based on which direction she/he inserted that spring.  

[logical]

The bullets fit in the magazines backwards too.  Use caution.

[R9SCarry]

gr8 - I too am a fellow engineer - and have pondered this before.  I also do not claim to be all that well versed in spring design, tho have made them numerous times.  I know leaf springs are somewhat of a black art!!

Wolff makes the springs for R9 and I'd attribute to them an assumed skill in spring design, such that if they could have made double closed for the gun, they would have.  As I said before, compromize has been made, apparently necessarily.

If fitted in reverse, the gun will still function but it would not take long for the open coil to over-ride the stop collar (pics of such are on FAQ site) ..... then, problems will occur.

Without trying to be argumentative or pedantic - I in all honesty see no real prob with a final check during reassembly.  I just cannot see how difficult that is for the average person.  let's face it - we are not meant to use +P ammo - so we have to ensure that we check what we load with - that is another variable we have to be cognisant of - again, easily managed IMO.

I will try if I can to get ''horse's mouth'' info from source on this - the better hopefully to explain Rohrbaugh's decision.

[gr8guns]

I don't have an R9 yet. Perhaps you can tell me if the magazine will still fit all the way into the gun and rack a bullet into the chamber when the bullets are loaded backwards.  

[RJ HEDLEY]

  We haven't found a volunteer to try it yet..

  "logical" was just just funnin' with you..I think  

[R9SCarry]

I had a quick word with Eric just now to refresh on the reasons behind the spring choice.

It is pretty much as I described.  Wolff had to come up with a spring of suitable rate - that would not bind on full compression and yet, have the rate needed for function.  I think the current wire is 0.041 but they tried 0.043, 042 etc .... all in the quest to achieve the rate along with achieving a small safety tolerance under full compression.  0.040 would not make the rate.

The closure of both ends did mean that a smaller dia wire would have been needed - and so then the rate would have been reduced.  

I cannot name specific models but it would seem the R9 is not alone in having to have an open ended spring.

My final word would be, for someone considering an R9 - if this is something that bothers enough, as being insurmountable, as a problem....  then the R9 ain't for you!

[TW]

"My final word would be, for someone considering an R9 - if this is something that bothers enough, as being insurmountable, as a problem....  then the R9 ain't for you!"

>>These words from Chris apply to multiple issues of the R9...which is why, starting from the factory, these other words are often said...  "The R9 is NOT for everyone".

Another example of this is the fact the R9 was designed and built as a defensive handgun, plain and simple...!  It's not a Glock...it isn't meant to rack up rounds on the range every weekend, and it does require regular, simple maintenance after every 50 to 80 shots.  

After a new owner becomes familiar with R9 for firing cycle and accuracy, and finds a couple types of bullets which it likes - The R9 is basically meant to be put in your pocket and forgotten about until needed...add in shooting a clip or two per month to keep familiar with the gun and ammo fresh...and you are set to go.

Then...if the urge for a new master blaster comes upon you - you are free to go out and meet that need with the latest, greatest 1911 or AR-15...knowing your personal defense is covered surely and discreetly by your trusty 'Lil R9.

Gotta LOOOVE your R9, and it will be ready to show it's love for you one day...TW<<  

[gr8guns]

With respect and "looove" for the gun I hope to own, there are many parameters that can be changed besides wire diameter.  To name a few, consider metal element; metal alloy; heat treatment; progressive versus linear springs; single-stage versus dual-stage springs; single recoil spring versus dual concentric recoil springs; negative springs; coil spacing; coil spacers; dampers; preload pressure; shot peening; spring curve; hot winding versus cold winding; and the list goes on.  Some mechanical engineers specialize in coil spring design.  There are a lot more options than picking a wire out of a catalog and clipping it to size.  Ok, now I’m sounding off a little.  But the potential is there for a closed end, reversible spring.

[R9SCarry]

It could genuinely be interesting to follow that up if you are  convinced .... and find out with Wolff maybe on what parameters they based their final design and why.

I'd be first to admit the plethora of options re alloys, heat treatments, etc, etc - but had come to conclusion thus far that most if not all avenues may already have been explored.  The development of the R9 was over a very long timeframe - that is why I feel many options would have been tried.

[TW]

>>I have no doubt that, given the support of teams of specialists, and all the time in the world - the folks at Rohrbaugh could have made the R9 "better" in various ways.  Oh...and lets not forget an unlimited budget to make it all happen.  However...what you had were two brothers, ten years, and an idea to come up with what we have today...after having morgaged their homes and everything else to see it through.

Do I hear someone willing to make a better R9...?  Or better yet, to offer their services for free to Karl and Eric to help make their R9 better...??  So far I haven't heard that part.  Hmmmmm.  So what exactly is it that we are hearing...?...!..TW<<

[gr8guns]

We are hearing the "Rohrbaugh Wish List."

And, I believe the wish list was prepared in sincere good faith with considerable backup information.  Yep, that's it.  :-/