Hornady Critical Defense

[MRC]

I went to the range on August 18th to test some Hornady FTX Critical Defense ammo that I had purchased just last week.  I also chronographed 3 other brands in my R9 and PM9.  The results are below:

                    

115 gr GD   R9  -  1089, 1094, 1084, 1080 fps      
                    PM9 -   1161, 1100 fps

124 gr GD   R9  -  1042, 988, 1011, 996 fps        
                   PM9  -  1079. 1036 fps

124 Federal  R9 -  937, 968, 970, 974 fps
                     PM9  - 992, 983 fps

115 gr CD  R9  -  991, 999, 1030, 1004 fps
                   PM9 -  1025, 1026 fps        
                    
                    
                      
I fired the PM9 first and picked up all the brass before moving to the R9.  All primers were struck solidly and showed nothing unusual,

I then fired the 16 rounds through the R9 and picked up the brass.  Both Gold Dots and the Federal had normal looking primers and showed nothing unusual.  The primers on all four Hornady were "fried egg" appearing.  While chronographing I  fire from a rest which can lead to some "limp wristing" so I fired eight more rounds off-hand for a further test and to check accuracy.  All the primers showed signs of the "fried egg" look but not as bad.

All cartridges fed, fired, and ejected without any failure in both guns.  Accuracy was also good.

I plan on contacting Hornady to see what their thoughts are on the problem with their CD ammo and the R9.  I still have 11 unfired rounds and will not do anything with it until I talk to them.  Everything appeared normal on the CD's fired in the PM9.

[tracker]

They will probably give you the same song and dance they gave me a year ago. Caveat emptor.

[MRC]

I am just wanting to find some one who can tell me what causes this "fried egg" look.  I have a Colt Pocket Nine that does this also.  I have been to two Gunsmiths and an Arsenal Armorer with this problem and no one seems to really know what it is.  It still looks lke a high pressure problem to me, but I have no idea what would cause it just in certain pistols.

[tracker]

As you have suggested the fried egg primer is associated with the smaller compact 9 mm. pistols. Apparently, they do not have the equivalent strike capability of larger pistols. The small guns do not mix well with hard primers. Also, Hornady told me that they would look into adjusting the primer seating depth. That is when I decided to let them do all of the research they needed, just without me.

[MRC]

I talked to Hornady this A.M. about the odd looking primers.  The gentleman I talked to told me they hear of this every so often but is not a common problem.  He said he has heard from one other Rohrbaugh owner about it who was going to send the ammo back, but they never received it.

He told me there are many contributing factors, but headspace problems account for about 75% he felt.  Other factors are soft or hard primers, seating depth of primer, and spring tensions.

After talking to him I measured the fired cases of the different brands I tested the other day, and the Hornady was about .004 of an inch shorter.  I then removed the barrels from the R9 and the PM9 and inserted the various live rouds from the boxes I used for the test.  I measured the distance from the head of the cartridge to the muzzle for all the rounds.  The measurements in the PM9 barrel were +or- .001" for all four of the cartridge types measuring two from each box.  The Hornady ammo in the R9 barrel was .003 to.004" less than the other three brands meaning it set into the chamber farther creating more headspace.

Is this enough to cause a problem?  Probably not but add in an extra couple of .001's  in the lockup of the R9 which is possible we could have a problem.  My recoil spring is about due for a change so that is another variable.

He confirmed by lot number that the primers were Winchester.  He said they specify a softer cup material from Winchester for the CD ammo.

After talking with Hornady, I really do no think there is a problem using this ammo in my R9.  I ask him what he though and his opinion is if it goes off and the primers are tight in the fired case, he saw no problem.

I plan on getting my Colt Pocket Nine out and run some more tests with it, the R9 and the Hornady ammo.

[kjtrains]

Thanks for the info, MRC.  Good to know.

[tracker]

There were several people including me who returned CD ammo to them. Their credibility was gone with me a year ago.

[MRC]

Tracker - I do not know what problems you were having with the ammo, but mine were completely different from what Chihuahua's pictures showed.  My rounds all fired but several showed no firing pin indentation and the rest were barely dimpled indicating the primer was pushed back against the breach face and flattening out.  He and I both felt it was as much of a gun problem as an ammunition problem.  All the rounds fired in the PM9 looked normal.

Sorry you had problems with Hornady, but everything he told me made sense and I appreciated his help.

[tracker]

I bought the CD for the R9. Since it wasn't reliable for the Rohrbaugh all of its bells and whistles didn't matter. I not only had the "fried egg" look there were also numerous failures to fire. There are just too many manufacturers who make reliable ammo that function flawlessly in the R9 to risk the Hornady primer issue. Apparently, the employees spout the party line at the risk of retribution.

[Reinz]

I appreciate all your time, effort and money that your put into  this MRC, especially the detailed feedback.

My thinking parallels Tracker's on this.  Defense is critical and Critical Defense is questionable.  With so many options available out there why risk it with something questionalble ?

It's just not worth it.

[MRC]

tracker, Reinz  

You aren't going to get any arguement from me on the reliability of this ammo.  In my case I truly believe it is the guns fault and not Hornady.  Your experiences and Chihuahua's are completely different than mine.  I am not carrying this stuff in the R9 but I do not think it's Hornady's fault.  It is well documented here on the forum about the likes and dislikes of the R9 as far as ammunition.  The R9 is not the only good 9mm that I carry regularly.

As an engineer and an avid reloader, this stuff is very interesting to me.  

If I have headspace problems with the Pocket Nine or the R9, I want to know.

[tracker]

 
If it is the gun's fault, why does other recommended ammo work without a hiccup?

[Reinz]

MRC - so now it is more down to a puzzle problem ?

Being a reloader myself, that intriques me as well.

But we are at a slight disadvantage.  We do not know the receipe of the CD.  May not be necessary at all, but could be helpful.

For all we know, it can all come down to the "custom" primers that Winchester is making for Hornady.  Being a softer cup material could be the whole crux of the matter.   Could be inconsistences in material, some primers coming in too soft - which gives the fried egg appeareance.  We could be getting some defective primers so to speak. Afterall, how many of these in proportion to their regular primers does Winchester make ?
2% ? - 5 % ?...  Very easy to see mistakes here.

[Reinz]

MRC - something else, could be the gun's fault and the ammo's fault together.

One, the soft primers.

Two, being such a small gun shooting a big cartridge so to speak, think about how hard the slide comes back and thus recoils, especially compared to a full sized 9mm.
Quite a bit more force eh?
That cartrige case is slamming into the bolt face at the same time with that force.
Well add that force with softer primers and possibly that could be a reason for fried eggs?
At least popping out the primer dents.

Thoughts ?

[MRC]

If it is the gun's fault, why does other recommended ammo work without a hiccup?

If it is the ammo's fault why does it work perfectly in other guns?

Reinz is probably right in saying it is a combination of ammo and gun.  A too short cartridge and a too long chamber, both in spec, but add up the tolerances and problems could arise.  Throw in a too soft primer and a very light hammer strike and more troubles show up.

You are right, we're guessing.