Glaser Safety Slugs

[flintsghost]

For those interested, I have mentioned Glaser Safety slugs before.  Originally developed for the sky marshalls program in the 70's so that the projectile would not penetrate the skin of an aircraft from the inside causing a catastrophic aircraft incident.    The are basically a jacket containing a shot charge, originally #12 size and have a polymer filled tip.  Thus a prefragmented projectile.   At one time a medical examiner from the San Francisco area wrote a paper on them and indicated in summary that they were a virtual guarranteed kill with a torso hit, because the shot went all over the place inside the target and would shred the internal organ and heart.
They are quite expensive and not available in 9mm non +P but they are available in .380 and might be a great round for that weapon.  Corbon now manufactures them and also has a new Glaser product available about which I know absolutely nothing.   Here are two links, one to the manufacturer and the other to Natchez Shooters Supply who is a retailer and also has fairly low (comparatively speaking) prices.  If $2 a shot plus can be considered low.   They are expensive.  I have shot them and the feed reliably.   Accuracy is OK.   What you gain from the prefragmented shot is deadly in the target but penetration must be considered.   They will not penetrate hard objects.  So if your adversary is wearing body armor of behind cover, they are a waste of money and time.  You would be better off throwning rocks.

http://www.shopcorbon.com/Glaser-Safety-Slug/500/500/dept

http://www.natchezss.com/product.cfm?contentId=productSearch&searchItem=Glaser%20

Incidentally,  they are, to the best of my knowledge, no longer used in the sky marshall's program.   Aircraft pressurization has come a long way since the 70's. On todays commercial aircraft, it is highly unlikely (or so I am told) that a small bullet hole through the aircraft skin would cause the plane to depressurize and have a problem.    Simply put the compressors can keep up with the leak, easily.  

[C0untZer0]

There is a lot of information on bullet effectiveness now, and my own personal opinion on the 9mm is that, in plain ballistic gelatin I want to get close or slightly past 14" penetration and recovered diameter of .600 or greater.

There are a few bullets now that do that - some really great loads.

Even though the Glaser makes a ghastly wound - the wound is relatively shallow, doesn't penetrate to vital tissue and it's effectiveness is dubious IMO.

[flintsghost]

What you say has a lot of merit.   The facts about Glaser safety slugs do indicate that they lack penetration.   They were specifically designed not to over penetrate so they could be used inside a large cylindrical object that was under pressure...an aircraft...without causing a catastrophic drop in pressure leading to pilots running out of airspeed, altitude, and ideas all at the same time.   That is no longer likely to happen due to improvements in aircraft pressurization equipment.   So Glasers time may be over.

The facts of the matter when would ballistics are considered by medical examiners, however, are somewhat more revealing.   Several years ago I had occasion to read some material that came from an ME in the San Francisco area who not only had occasion to see the results first hand in persons shot with glasers but also had occasion to shoot into the tissue of deal cattle and see the results.   His conclusions were that a Glaser torso hit anywhere was not necessarily a incapacitating stop but would always be a kill eventually.   I found that interesting information.   However,  I haven't used Glasers myself simply because I want the incapacitating stop.
If I shoot effectively with the appropriate ammunition then that will occur and normal a kill will follow without any further jeopardy.  

Glasers in a Rohrbaugh are largely just a thought since they are +P and the folks who make the Rohrbaugh don't recommend the use of ammo of that pressure rating.  But they are worth knowing about because they may fill a need at some time or another for a special purpose.

[tracker]

Not to worry about old airplanes and big bullets. None will cause a pilot to run out of altitude, airspeed, and ideas all at the same time. Loss of cabin pressure is routinely practiced in semi-annual simulator checks by performing rapid descents after donning cockpit oxygen masks. A descent to 10,000 ft. MSL will allow everyone to breathe normally without supplemental oxygen. As an example, the recent Southwest Airlines flight had a huge hole torn in the fuselage due to structural failure and performed an emergency descent, 6000fpm+, and landed normally after scaring all passengers out of their wits.

[flintsghost]

Not to worry about old airplanes and big bullets. None will cause a pilot to run out of altitude, airspeed, and ideas all at the same time. Loss of cabin pressure is routinely practiced in semi-annual simulator checks by performing rapid descents after donning cockpit oxygen masks. A descent to 10,000 ft. MSL will allow everyone to breathe normally without supplemental oxygen. As an example, the recent Southwest Airlines flight had a huge hole torn in the fuselage due to structural failure and performed an emergency descent, 6000fpm+, and landed normally after scaring all passengers out of their wits.

I'm sure that's true now.  In 1971 when D B Cooper started the rage that eventually gave birth to the sky marshall's program and Glaser Safety Slugs, that may not have been the case.  At least the people who were running the program didn't think so.  It hasn't been that many years past since an aircraft lost a large section of fusilage and a couple of passengers enroute to Hawaii and it managed to survive. Technology marches on.   Glasers are still around and certainly an interesting footnote in ballistic history.  They are deadly, for sure.  Whether or not they serve much purpose today is up for grabs.  

[tracker]

As you may recall, D.B. Cooper went out the aft airstairs of a Boeing 727. The fix on that problem was to install a small aerodynamic lock on the fuselage to prevent the door from being operated during flight by a handle in the aft airstair area that was installed there as a secondary ground evacuation exit. Unfortunately, there was no original ground/air or squat switch to prevent the door from being opened in flight.
The 727 could take more than a few penetrating rounds to cause anything greater than a slow cabin pressure leak.

[C0untZer0]

D.B. Cooper assumed the name "Jimmy James" and became the manager at WKRP.

[tracker]

I liked that program. D.B. was indeed a slippery and innovative character. As usual, the FAA, TSA, and all gubment authorities are one step behind and thought Glasers and Sky Marshals would be the answer. So, instead of going out the back door like D.B. they came in the front door. Fortunately, DEVGRU and SEAL Team Six answered with a vengeance ten years later.

[flintsghost]

As you may recall, D.B. Cooper went out the aft airstairs of a Boeing 727. The fix on that problem was to install a small aerodynamic lock on the fuselage to prevent the door from being operated during flight by a handle in the aft airstair area that was installed there as a secondary ground evacuation exit. Unfortunately, there was no original ground/air or squat switch to prevent the door from being opened in flight.
The 727 could take more than a few penetrating rounds to cause anything greater than a slow cabin pressure leak.

True but he walked out at under 100 knots and under 10,000 feet so cabin depressurization was not an issue.   I don't have enough information on what the compressors of 727's were like in those days or any of the other aircraft flying then.   I agree that I'm not positive Glaser were the answer.  They certainly aren't now.  I know that for quite some time now cockpit aircrew members who ask to be armed are training with or were, HK USPc 40's and at least in practice were using Blazer.   HK for a time and possibly still, have a special deal for them on those weapons.  Apparently that is the weapon of choice that FAA requires.   Not a bad choice. What they carry in it when the weapon is on board, I have no idea.   But training and requal is held at our departments range as well as others around the country.

[tracker]

No one walks out of a 727 under 100 kts unless they are on the ground. I have over 6000 hrs. in all 3 seats of a 727 and have a FAA Check Airman Rating as a Captain and Flight Engineer. The 727 has pneumatic, electrically actuated outflow valves that close at 11,000 ft. in a decompression and the passenger oxygen masks deploy at 14,000 ft. It has an excellent manual control of the outflow valves as a back-up. There is absolutely no pressurization control issue with a bullet penetration in a 727 and I can attest that it will take considerable punishment in the air or on the ground.

[Richard S]

I carried Glasers several years ago before the R9 came along. I still have a few blister packs in .32 ACP, .380 ACP, and 9mm Luger. The problem with loading them in the R9, of course, is that the Glaser in 9mm Luger is a +P round -- although it has only an 80-grain bullet. [Got velocity?] Trauma surgeons don't like them because of the difficulty in finding all of the pellets in cleaning a wound -- assuming that the recipient survives long enough to reach an ER -- or so a surgeon friend of mine once told me.

The Glaser Safety Slugs have been around quite a while now. I think they still have their place, but I'm inclined to think it has become somewhat limited given some of the more recent developments in bullet design.

[flintsghost]

No one walks out of a 727 under 100 kts unless they are on the ground. I have over 6000 hrs. in all 3 seats of a 727 and have a FAA Check Airman Rating as a Captain and Flight Engineer. The 727 has pneumatic, electrically actuated outflow valves that close at 11,000 ft. in a decompression and the passenger oxygen masks deploy at 14,000 ft. It has an excellent manual control of the outflow valves as a back-up. There is absolutely no pressurization control issue with a bullet penetration in a 727 and I can attest that it will take considerable punishment in the air or on the ground.

Read the info on Coopers action.  They were under 10,000 feet with the gear down and the airspeed was 100 knots and he was having them fly in that manner.  They had been flying that way with the tail steps closed since they left the airport where he got the money and the chutes.  Two military jets were shadowing them and a NG Trainer joined in the surveillance.  Altitude and airspeed are pretty well documented.  They didn't know that he was going out till the rear stairs opened and lowered which the pilot knew by the warning indicator.  That's all in the published info off the report.   He walked off the steps to freefall although he was never seen.   It's a fact that he left the plane.   Some of the money was recovered on the ground years later.   Going off the rear of the 727 is probably the only way it could have been done.   A side door exit at that speed would no doubt cause the jumper to hit the side of the plane and maybe the tail just due to the speed.   Combat aircraft even in HALO jumps don't move that fast.  Anyway, it doesn't matter, it was only of interest due to the Glasers development reason's.  

[tracker]

If a 727 will stall at 100 kts after being refueled an F-106 Delta Dart, the shadowing aircraft, will have stalled long before that.  Swept wing jet aircraft do not fly at 100 kts. Wikipedia may think otherwise but they are probably F.L.A.P.s: F'in light airplane pilots.  

[Richard S]

If a 727 will stall at 100 kts after being refueled an F-106 Delta Dart, the shadowing aircraft, will have stalled long before that.  Swept wing jet aircraft do not fly at 100 kts. Wikipedia may think otherwise but they are probably F.L.A.P.s: F'in light airplane pilots.  

Ouch! That brought back a blast from the past. I think it was sometime around 1970 when I got my private pilot license flying a Cessna 150 out of Godfrey Field in Leesburg, Virginia. My flight instructor was very good at his job, but he definitely had a warped sense of humor. When it came time for me to make a solo flight into a controlled airport, what did he choose for me? Dulles International, no less!

I can still recall the moment as I was on final approach to a runway that looked wider than Godfrey's was long when a voice came over the radio saying:

"Dulles Control, United XXX. Can you hurry up and get that kite on the ground? We're out here doing S-turns over the Alleghenys waiting on him."

I later learned that my instructor and his buddies were back at Godfrey listening to the F.L.A.P. trying to get his Cessna on the ground.  :-/

[tracker]

Great story. We are all F.L.A.P.s of one kind or the other in the beginning. My A-12 Navy primary flight training solo flight was done at OLF Silver Hill in southern Alabama. After much berating and derogatory remarks during 11 flights about my flying prowess, the instructor decided it was time for me to solo in a T-34. We took off from Saufley Field, flew over to Alabama, and he jumped out to be my runway safety officer. I made 12 T&Gs with no other aircraft in the pattern and we flew back to Pensacola where they cut my tie in half at happy hour. The Navy didn't let you stay a F.L.A.P for very long.