Non-Scientific Ammo Test

[steel714]

Thanks for the great ammo report.....

[Marine Ordnance]

Hi Folks,

Here is an email I received this morning from Hornady regarding the problems I am experiencing with Critical Defense ammo.

Bill
____________________________________________________

Mr. B.,
 
Sorry it took me so long to get back to you it has been a crazy week.
 
Let me just kind of run you through what has happened with the 9mm Critical Defense. At first we thought we had a problem, we had many meetings and hashed out our plan of attack just in case this turned out to be our problem. Over thanksgiving we also had one of our engineers build a really nice primer sensitivity tester.
 
To make a long story short we did get a fair amount of returns on the 9mm Critical Defense. However after advising people, many of which had either Kahr or Kel-Tec pistols and specifically in your case Rohrbaugh, we have decided that the problem is not on our end. Every single person that I have gotten back in touch with in regards to these returns have said they sent their gun in to the manufacturer and after getting it back with parts replaced they can't get anything to misfire. Moreover, we have not seen a Critical Defense return of any kind in the past month.
 
We tested the sensitivity of the primers, they are well within spec. We have tested pressure and velocity countless times, always in spec.
 
At this point, and I hate to do this, I have to blame your firearm for these troubles and I'll restate again what I am almost certain the problem is. Your gun has a weak firing pin. From careful study of the pictures you posted on your website I and the other guys in the lab think that is clear. Your firing pin is penetrating the primer and normally a properly working firing pin is going to stay in the mark it just made, the chamber pressurizes and gets hot, the primer is shoved flush with the breach face and you get a nice filled out firing pin strike. However in the case of a weak firing pin it is not strong enough to stay put in the depression it just made and is shoved back into the firing pin channel. As this happens the chamber pressurizes and there is no firing pin there to stop the primer material from flowing. So, it flows straight back into the mouth of the firing pin channel and is sheared right back off when the round is ejected, netting you "fried egg primers".
 
I know from the pictures on the website that some of the winchester loads work great in your gun and I can't comment on those. What I do know is that ours are still in SAAMI specification. SAAMI specification is SAAMI specification and the gun makers are just as obliged to follow them as we are and it seems that your firing pin simply isn't up to par.
 
I'm glad that you found ammunition that works in your gun and it is your right to completely ignore the problem; however, I still have to recommend that you get your gun looked at by a reputable gunsmith or Rohrbaugh as I believe you have a firing pin problem. The fact is guns should shoot and function perfectly with any ammunition that is in SAAMI specification. I know for a fact ours is in spec in regards to any quantitative value that it is possible for me to measure, that leaves only one other link in the chain that could be at fault.
 
Again I'm happy you found ammunition that worked and I wish you the happiest of shooting with it. I don't want this email to come across as nasty I'm just trying to level with you. As always if you have any questions or want to talk about anything you have my number and email.
 
Sincerely,
Curt Emary
Hornady Manufacturing Company

[tracker]

Thanks for posting, Bill; I was afraid that would be their answer and now the problem is back onto us. If this is true, and I think it is, maybe it points out that some of us have weak firing pins/springs. I would be interested to hear Karl's take on this one.

[Marine Ordnance]

Hi Tracker,

What I don't understand is why does ammo produced by other manufactures (Federal, Winchester, Speer, etc.) shoot as they should and CD doesn't.  If the firing pin spring is too 'soft' wouldn't this symptom show up with other ammo?  Maybe the metal used to manufacture CD primers is significantly softer than Winchester, Remington, etc.  

I will be interested to see what the folks at Rohrbaugh think.  I sent Hornady's response to Maria this morning.

Bill

[tracker]

All of this exercise is puzzling; one thing we do know is that the suspect primers and the R9 are incompatible with each other. It is like a bad marriage.

[sdlsaginaw]

I'm very interested in hearing a response from Rohrbaugh too, I have a few boxes of CD sitting on the shelf that show this problem.

The description does sound right though, when I was shooting the CD and getting "fried egg primers" I also ended up with some brass shavings that landed in the barrel lock and kept me from opening the slide.  Also explains the poster that had a photo of brass in the firing pin hole.

[tracker]

One point here that Curt Emary, apparently a superb ballistician by all counts, deftly sidesteps is the S&B primer issue. He constantly mentions SAAMI specs without addressing the difference between their primers. As far as I am concerned the S&B primer lots look like they came from a Cracker Jack box. I suspect there will be more exculpatory "Mi no Alamo" as this mystery unfolds.

[kjtrains]

I still think it's the S&B primers as well.  They are definitely dancing around the issue of anything wrong on their end.

[Marine Ordnance]

Hi Folks,

Here is a message I received Monday from Curt Emary at Hornady:

Mr. B,
 
Just thought I would inform you that the company has purchased a Rohrbaugh that we will be testing extensively with our Critical Defense ammo. Hopefully we can shine some more light on this issue and figure out what the problem is for certain. I'll keep you up to date if you would like.
 
Regards,
Curt Emary

I told him that I would like to be notified of any findings.

Bill

[kjtrains]

Bill.  It certainly seems like now Hornady is interested in working out the problem; gun or primers.  However, it could still be one sided.

[Chihuahua TN]

Hi Tracker,

What I don't understand is why does ammo produced by other manufactures (Federal, Winchester, Speer, etc.) shoot as they should and CD doesn't.  If the firing pin spring is too 'soft' wouldn't this symptom show up with other ammo?  Maybe the metal used to manufacture CD primers is significantly softer than Winchester, Remington, etc.  

Exactly my thoughts......My R9s is new, however the only defense ammo I have issues with is FTF (fire) is from Hornady's critical defense. I had this issue with my LCP as well....hence why I don't use critical defense it inspires little confidence and its rather disappointing,
Mike

[yankee2500]

And I have fired Critical Defense in my LCP, P380, and Rohrbaugh and had zero issues always fed, fired and ejected as it should.
 But I have had no problem with any ammo in my R9s and have put at least seven differant brands through it.

John

[tracker]

This is a welcome pro-active response from Hornady but since the problem didn't appear prior to the S&B primers in their ammo I don't know where they are going with this.

[kjtrains]

Yes, it could be just a gesture of good faith.

[steel714]

Well since we are on the subject of ammo, I am going to be sending my R9s back to the factory. I have tried all the following ammo, and I am getting failures to fire and failure to eject on all this ammo so I know I must have a problem with the gun.
Speer Gold Dot 124gr gdhp - were the best 1 ff
Fiocchi 115gr fmj - out of 14 rounds 1 ff and 1 fe
Winchester 147gr bonded jhp - 14 rounds 1 ff & 3 fe
Remminton umc 115gr mc - Terrible may failure on both fire and eject (terrible)
Federal Premium le 124gr hs jhp - out of 14 rounds 1 ff & 1 fe

I have only had the gun for about a month and I am not about to carry a weapon that I cant depend on. I hope Rohrbaugh can figure out the problem and rectify it.