Author Topic: The Good, The Bad, & The Ugly  (Read 5701 times)

Offline rtmoore4

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The Good, The Bad, & The Ugly
« on: February 23, 2009, 01:13:33 AM »
Some of you may recall the difficulties I had with my brand-new R9S.  http://www.rohrbaughforum.com/YaBB.cgi?board=R9S;action=display;num=1228350780

To summarize, my first two range visits were marred by excessive FTE and FTF.  After reporting about it here, and getting the sense from the community that something was definitely wrong, I called Maria up and sent it back.  After four weeks of patiently waiting, I finally got her back and went to the range.


The Good:

Despite the fact that the very first round fired was a FTE (with 115gr Silvertips, btw), the pistol has since seen ~120 rounds with nary a hiccup.  Ammunition used during this session was:  115gr Silvertips, WWB 115gr FMJ, Federal Hydrashok, Winchester SXZ training (Bass Pro Shop proprietary), and Golden Sabres.  All of it fed fine, fired well, and extracted nicely.  All except for the first round, of course.  Someone somewhere seemed to be having a giggle at my expense on that one.  You should have seen my face.  I was like, You have GOT to be kidding me!?"  Anyway, it appears like my problems have been solved, for the moment anyway.  More on this later.


The Bad:

While Maria was very nice both times I called, I had to initiate every conversation.  Nobody called me to communicate with me in any way.  Not to let me know they had received it, nor that it was being looked at, and certainly not when they had found something and repaired it.  Well, that's ok, you say, I'm sure when they sent it back, there was some paperwork with an explanation of what was found and repaired.  Negative.  When I returned the pistol, I sent a fairly extensive writeup, including pictures, of what was going on.  All I got back was a Quickbooks invoice showing "Warranty Repair - $0."  When I spoke with Maria, she had to go digging to find out some "brass pieces" were found in the firing pin channel and not allowing the FP to return to it's rest position.  Well, that would certainly explain why I was getting light strikes and FTF.  It might also explain the FTE, but Maria mentioned they had done something with the extractor as well.  She wasn't sure what, so maybe the cleaning of the FP channel did the trick or maybe it was something else.  Anyway, no biggie, right?  I've got a repaired pistol, so life is good.  Except I want to know how brass pieces got into the FP channel.  Was this a Quality Control issue, or is it something on my end?  I tend to lean towards the former, since there were a lot of metal shavings and filings in the pistol when I first received it.  The first cleaning pulled at least 15-20 of these tiny pieces of metal out of the inside of the pistol.  If any of those were in the FP channel, that would cause an issue for sure.  I don't know if the test firings and the tight tolerances of the pistol produced these shavings or if something else was the cause, but if I were Rohrbaugh, I'd want to get to the bottom of it.

Some more not so perfect aspects to my customer service experience as well...  When I called the first time, I had asked for the pistol to be shipped back to my office and not my home.  This didn't happen.  In addition, when I took the pistol apart, it was dirtier than you can possibly imagine.  I never let my pistols get that dirty and it was shipped back to me that way?  Wow, I've never had a manufacturer ship me back a pistol without cleaning and lubing it first.  What about the recoil spring, you ask?  Well, no, that hadn't been replaced either, but they did put a new one in the box.  Which is good, since a lot of rounds had apparently been put through it while they had it, because the recoil spring in the gun was basically shot.  A good coil and a half of tension was gone.  Surely the extra mag, or other type of manufacturer freebie for having to return a brand-new pistol for warranty work that should have been caught before it left the factory more than made up for these inconveniences, right?  Negative, again.  There was nothing in the box that wasn't in there when I shipped it up to them other than the recoil spring to replace the one that was no longer any good.  Thanks, guys.

Anyway, all of this is to say, that it's great that some of you have had Karl, himself, call you up to say he was sorry about your pistol and what they found and repaired, but that is not everyone's experience, so don't expect it.  To be honest, I didn't really expect it either.  A phone call from anyone at Rohrbaugh letting me know when I could expect my pistol back would have been nice.  A note or phone call letting me know what they had found and fixed would have been nice.  And some acknowledgement of how sorry they were that this happened would have been really nice.  Some manufacturers do this by giving you freebies when they send back your pistol, but I would have settled for a short note or something acknowledging my legitimate disappointment and apologizing for the inconvenience.  I got nothing.  But hey, my pistol works now, right?

Offline rtmoore4

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Re: The Good, The Bad, & The Ugly
« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2009, 01:14:13 AM »
Which leads me to The Ugly:

After the extending range session the other day, which was designed to prove to myself this thing was reliable enough to carry, I stripped it and cleaned it.  And what did I find when I pulled off the slide?  Three tiny brass pieces, smaller than the head of a matchstick, but larger than the head of a toothpick.  



Now where did these come from and what are they doing in the chamber of my pistol?  I saved a fair amount of the brass I fired, since I wanted to be sure the light strike problem was really solved.  None of the brass seemed to have gouges big enough to cause the particles I found.  Sure, most had light scratches, but none of them explain where the pieces in the picture above are coming from and whether or not they could cause me a problem over time.  Could these get stuck in the FP channel?  I doubt it, but the question lingers.

Offline Corvette

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Re: The Good, The Bad, & The Ugly
« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2009, 02:07:01 AM »
As a new owner pf an R9s, your post has me very concerned.
  
When you charge close to a grand or better for a gun, there is absolutely no excuse for things like this to happen in the first place. None.

People will probably write:  
"Don't worry, it'll get fixed perfectly" and "Karl will take care of it, just be patient"...you'll be glad you did".

Sorry, that's no consolation to someone after spending this much for a gun.    

Rohrbaugh should pay shipping both ways, keep him  informed every step of the way, and at the very least, tossed in a mag for his inconvenience.  










  
« Last Edit: February 23, 2009, 02:56:01 AM by 68hodaka »

Offline Jack Foulard

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Re: The Good, The Bad, & The Ugly
« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2009, 10:53:06 AM »
Quote
As a new owner pf an R9s, your post has me very concerned.
  
When you charge close to a grand or better for a gun, there is absolutely no excuse for things like this to happen in the first place. None.

People will probably write:  
"Don't worry, it'll get fixed perfectly" and "Karl will take care of it, just be patient"...you'll be glad you did".

Sorry, that's no consolation to someone after spending this much for a gun.    

Rohrbaugh should pay shipping both ways, keep him  informed every step of the way, and at the very least, tossed in a mag for his inconvenience.  

  

+1

Offline Jack Foulard

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Re: The Good, The Bad, & The Ugly
« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2009, 11:00:10 AM »
Quote
The Bad:

While Maria was very nice both times I called, I had to initiate every conversation.  Nobody called me to communicate with me in any way.  Not to let me know they had received it, nor that it was being looked at, and certainly not when they had found something and repaired it.  Well, that's ok, you say, I'm sure when they sent it back, there was some paperwork with an explanation of what was found and repaired.  Negative.  When I returned the pistol, I sent a fairly extensive writeup, including pictures, of what was going on.  All I got back was a Quickbooks invoice showing "Warranty Repair - $0."  When I spoke with Maria, she had to go digging to find out some "brass pieces" were found in the firing pin channel and not allowing the FP to return to it's rest position.  Well, that would certainly explain why I was getting light strikes and FTF.  It might also explain the FTE, but Maria mentioned they had done something with the extractor as well.  She wasn't sure what, so maybe the cleaning of the FP channel did the trick or maybe it was something else.  Anyway, no biggie, right?  I've got a repaired pistol, so life is good.  Except I want to know how brass pieces got into the FP channel.  Was this a Quality Control issue, or is it something on my end?  I tend to lean towards the former, since there were a lot of metal shavings and filings in the pistol when I first received it.  The first cleaning pulled at least 15-20 of these tiny pieces of metal out of the inside of the pistol.  If any of those were in the FP channel, that would cause an issue for sure.  I don't know if the test firings and the tight tolerances of the pistol produced these shavings or if something else was the cause, but if I were Rohrbaugh, I'd want to get to the bottom of it.

Some more not so perfect aspects to my customer service experience as well...  When I called the first time, I had asked for the pistol to be shipped back to my office and not my home.  This didn't happen.  In addition, when I took the pistol apart, it was dirtier than you can possibly imagine.  I never let my pistols get that dirty and it was shipped back to me that way?  Wow, I've never had a manufacturer ship me back a pistol without cleaning and lubing it first.  What about the recoil spring, you ask?  Well, no, that hadn't been replaced either, but they did put a new one in the box.  Which is good, since a lot of rounds had apparently been put through it while they had it, because the recoil spring in the gun was basically shot.  A good coil and a half of tension was gone.  Surely the extra mag, or other type of manufacturer freebie for having to return a brand-new pistol for warranty work that should have been caught before it left the factory more than made up for these inconveniences, right?  Negative, again.  There was nothing in the box that wasn't in there when I shipped it up to them other than the recoil spring to replace the one that was no longer any good.  Thanks, guys.

Anyway, all of this is to say, that it's great that some of you have had Karl, himself, call you up to say he was sorry about your pistol and what they found and repaired, but that is not everyone's experience, so don't expect it.  To be honest, I didn't really expect it either.  A phone call from anyone at Rohrbaugh letting me know when I could expect my pistol back would have been nice.  A note or phone call letting me know what they had found and fixed would have been nice.  And some acknowledgement of how sorry they were that this happened would have been really nice.  Some manufacturers do this by giving you freebies when they send back your pistol, but I would have settled for a short note or something acknowledging my legitimate disappointment and apologizing for the inconvenience.  I got nothing.  But hey, my pistol works now, right?

I definitely feel that your opinion is justified.

I'm not sure why a pistol can be made reliable upon sneding it back to the manufacturer but it can't be made to leave that way.  Seems to me that there is some tweaking that is done and maybe that tweaking that more time that they feel like spending.

Now pile on top of that that the dealer cost for these have increased tremendously over the years, the company makes more on a gun that still has issues of reliability.

I'd love to buy an Elite but have waited since there still are issues that concern me.  Since this is probably the costliest pocket gun around, I feel that it should be darn solid and should not have to revisit its birthplace.

Maybe getting the Elite with the supposed extra work would insure that it runs right out of the box.

BTQ, did you look at the spent casings to see where the brass was coming from?  Maybe the extractor is not making proper contact or maybe the FP is contacting the casing outside of the primer?  Just a few thoughts, but it has to be coming from somewhere.

Good luck.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2009, 11:00:28 AM by Jack_Foulard »

Offline theirishguard

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Re: The Good, The Bad, & The Ugly
« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2009, 11:56:50 AM »
Jack, I'm happy that the pup is running good for you now. while I have no idea why it is peeling brass, they did fix it. You most likely did not get the phone calls because they were tied up with the Shot Show. After over 4 years of working with and selling the R9s, I have not had problems like that. The 2-3 customers who sent back their pistols had them taken care of and were very happy with the customer service. This is a small % of over 300 pups that I have sold.
I suggest you keep shooting it and see what happens and keep  Rohrbaugh aware of what's happening. You may in the future get that call from Karl. Good luck.  Tom
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Offline Richard S

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Re: The Good, The Bad, & The Ugly
« Reply #6 on: February 23, 2009, 12:11:35 PM »
rtmoore:

I regret what appears to be your qualified dissatisfaction with your R9 and am replying here based on the comment in your first post to the Forum last December that, "I'm looking forward to carrying the Ferrari of pocket 9s." That is an analogy which I have frequently used in these pages to describe the R9, and it is an analogy which I still believe to be appropriate after nearly five years of carrying my own R9 No. 132 on a daily basis.

Your previous posts would indicate that you took delivery of your R9 last December 6, sent it back to the factory on or about December 17 after two range sessions during which you had run what you described as a "mixed bag" of ammunition through it and experienced a failure to fire, some light primer strikes, and some failures to eject. Your first post today states that your pistol was returned to you after you had spent "four weeks of patiently waiting." You also state that the factory had found small pieces of brass in the firing-pin chamber, had done "something" to the extractor, and had returned the pistol to you in what you describe as "dirty" condition. You indicate that, although it appears that your R9 is now functioning as it should, you have found shards of brass in the slide area during disassembly and that you are displeased over having had to initiate each one of your conversations with Maria at Rohrbaugh customer service.

As for the brass shards depicted in your second post today, they obviously could not have come from the pistol (which contains no brass parts) and had to come the casings of whatever ammunition was being used. My own initial and immediate reaction to such a phenomenon would be to attribute it either to faulty brass or inadequate lubrication of the weapon. As for the stated matters regarding your experience with the company's customer service, I would sincerely urge you to bear in mind the following matters: (1) Rohrbaugh Firearms is a very small, privately held operation dedicated to producing the finest possible products; (2) the company has been literally inundated with new orders recently due to the public's having become increasingly aware of the R9 and its status as the smallest and lightest pistol yet produced for the 9mm Parabellum cartridge, (3) development has just been completed and shipments have begun for the Rohrbaugh .380, placing additional demands on the company's small staff; (4) the company is still working to catch up with work demands following the Christmas holidays and SHOT 2009; (5) the  highly vaunted customer service which is offered by the company and which so many of us admire is essentially a one-woman operation named Maria; and (6) you sent your R9 back for repairs during the holiday/SHOT 2009 period during much of which the factory was either closed or on partial operations.

I may sound like a stuck record at times, but in my 71 years on this third rock from the sun, much of it in military and "other" service, I have never come across a handgun, except the "immortal" 1911, which I think serves its intended purpose as well as does the Rohrbaugh R9. And this is what a five-year-old R9 which has been carried daily, shot much, and never malfunctioned looks like these days:

 

Good luck in coming to peace with your own version of what I consider to be the finest pocket pistol yet designed.
(1963-1967) "GO ARMY!"

Offline rtmoore4

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Re: The Good, The Bad, & The Ugly
« Reply #7 on: February 23, 2009, 12:38:18 PM »
Tom,

Actually, it's Randle.  Jack was just commenting on my post.  I understand that the majority of owners don't have such issues, and when they do, they are typically happy with the customer service they receive.  My post was really more to let others know that is not always the case, and to be aware that it is possible to have a negative experience.

As far as the SHOT show and a phone call goes, they had my pistol for about four weeks, so that's not a valid excuse, IMO.  In any case, I did not require a phone call necessarily, but some type of communication that I did not initiate would have been nice.  I mean, seriously, they couldn't have written a short note to explain what they found and fixed?

I guess the key take-away that I have from this whole experience is the Rohrbaugh is more of a custom gun manufacturer than a mass producer.  They are clearly a small shop suffering with some growing pains and customer service (and possibly QC) is a bit of an issue.  For others who are thinking about a Rohrbaugh, I have the following comment.  As long as you go into the purchase knowing this and are willing to work with them to get the pistol where it needs to be, if necessary, you should be fine.  Otherwise, I'd recommend looking elsewhere.

Would I buy it again knowing what I know now?  I probably would, but I wished I had known what I might be getting into beforehand.  I will not be buying an R380, however.  I will be looking to get a Kahr P380 instead.

Richard,

Very nice summary, albeit a bit light on the significance of the problems I experienced and the detail with which I documented the exact ammo I used and the results.  I agree with your six point explanation of the reasons behind my customer service experience.  I just think it is helpful for others to be aware of that as well.

I also don't disagree with you that this pistol is well designed for it's intended use.  That is the primary reason why I would still consider buying this pistol again if I had it to do all over again.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2009, 12:48:43 PM by rtmoore4 »

Offline theirishguard

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Re: The Good, The Bad, & The Ugly
« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2009, 12:51:31 PM »
Randle, Point taken. I still think like Richard stated, the R9s is a fine pistol. Good luck with the Kahr.  Tom
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Offline Corvette

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Re: The Good, The Bad, & The Ugly
« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2009, 01:50:30 PM »
There is absolutely no excuse why a $1k, hand made, test fired, pistol should need to be retured to the builder for repair.

I haven't fired my R9 yet. If it FTF when using the suggested ammunition, for any reason other than shooting technique,
I won't retrurn it for repair, I'll sell it.

« Last Edit: February 23, 2009, 02:01:10 PM by 68hodaka »

Offline Maineiac

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Re: The Good, The Bad, & The Ugly
« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2009, 01:53:52 PM »
rtmoore
      Check the rims of your spent casings. Run your thumbnail around the rims. Sounds like the extractor is ripping a piece of brass out of them.