Rohrbaugh R9S / Seecamp LWS380 Shoot-out

[flyandscuba]

Today, I flew up to spend the day with oldganpa and his shooting buddies by participating in a "poker shoot".  What fun!  You are dealt 6 cards -- pick 5 -- and shoot the corresponding "cards" on the target (though they are smaller than actual playing cards -- and overlap each other) from 8 yards.  One "hand" is fired from a bench rest and the second from standing off-hand.

I used the HK P7M8.  Let's just say that I wish I had fired both "hands" from standing off-hand....  The bench rest and the P7M8 (me) didn't produce the results I anticipated.

After the shoot, oldgranpa and I set out to do a little more wetpack testing.  In our ealier tests, we noted that some bullets fired from the LWS380 appeared to keyhole -- though penetration was very acceptable.

I had read of possible keyhole results from the Rhorbaugh R9S in threads on the rohrbaugh forum.  So, oldgranpa and I decided to conduct a little shoot-out between the two guns -- specifically looking for evidence of keyholing.

We weren't disappointed, six rounds were fired from each pistol -- 2 showed evidence of keyholing from the R9S and 1 from the LWS380.

Here are the results:



A few interesting notes.  Both Silvertips fired from the LWS380 failed to expand -- at all.  The 115gr Gold Dot perfomed much better than the 124 gr Gold Dot from the R9S.  Both pistols produced shots that keyholed -- though penetration was excellent.

Based upon the previous results from the LWS380 with the Corbon DPX load -- it is still the cartridge that I recommend (and carry) in my Seecamp.  Oldgranpa fired a couple of DPX cartridges today -- and as before, expansion was complete and penetration was excellent.

Since the R9S is limited to standard pressure ammunition (thus ruling out the +P DPX for use), it appears that the lighter weight Gold Dot is the best performer of the ammunition tested in the Rohrbaugh.

Regards,
Flyandscuba

[harrydog]

Very interesting, especially the Silvertips failing to expand at all.
Thanks.

[Richard S]

Fly:

Thanks to you an Old Grandpa for performing the test and making the results available.  They pretty much confirm what Chris found in his own testing -- that the 115-grain Speer Gold Dots appear to the the fodder of choice for the R9.

[rtw]

Thanks  very much for the information!

And, is there a way to convert penetration in wetpack to penetration in  gelatin? Also, what is the recommended minimum penetration and what is considered overpenetration?

Thanks.

Dick

[flyandscuba]

Best we can tell, penetration in wetpack equates to roughly 2/3 what you would get in gelatin.

So, if you get 9 inches in wetpack -- you would expect to see 13.5 inches in gelatin.

I believe the FBI considers 12 inches in gelatin to be acceptable penetration.

I'm not really concerned much about over penetration.  To me, the risk of ineffective penetration in a pistol bullet far outweighs the remote chance of over penetration resulting in collateral damage liability (pistols -- all pistols -- are typically weak and inefficient firearms as compared to long guns).  More times than not, unique conditions surrounding a self defensive shooting (size of the BG, density of clothing worn, barriers between you and the assailant, etc.) increase the probability that penetration -- in the best of circumstances -- will be reduced.  Factor in the short barrel of pocket guns like the Rohrbaugh and Seecamp, and I believe it doubtful that you will over penetrate an assailant with center body mass hits.

An illustration of this weakness is the popular video clip of the BG sitting in the booking office of a law enforcement agency -- who happened to make it through multiple cursory searches with a full-size Government model 1911 hidden in the crotch of his pants.

Thankfully, he decides to shoot himself rather than the LEO when the officer leaves the room for a few seconds.  A point blank shot to the head fails to exit the skull (it does fracture the skull on the opposite side resulting in bleeding)...though the result is fatal.  (note - if you want a link to the video, send me a PM.  It is too graphic to post or link here)

During my previous career in emergency medical helicopter programs, rarely did I come across a handgun shooting victim who exhibited an exit wound when the entrance wound was to the mediastinum / center body mass (where you want your hits to make their mark).

[rtw]

Thank you.

The GD 115 vs. GD 124 analysis is interesting to me.

Apparently, another 1/2 inch of penetration (when even the smaller of the 2 amounts of penetration -13"-exceeds the threshhold level) is preferred over better expansion.?

[flyandscuba]

13.0 inches in wetpack would equate to 19.5" in gelatin.  Who knows how it will perform in living tissue...

You raise a good point.  I think incapacitating harm would come to a BG if hit with the 115 gr or 124 gr Gold Dot from the R9.  For the somewhat small difference in penetration, I would personally prefer the performance of the 115 gr Gold Dot -- in terms of the physics of the wound cavity produced by the more completely expanding hollow-point as the energy is expended into the target....but then again, a tumbling bullet creates significant wounding as well.

[rtw]

Thank you again for an interesting presentation of important information. I realize that the sample sizes were too small to draw real inference from the data, but, it's been very helpful!

[MountainMan]

Thanks for the great report - I really enjoyed it!

Though not scientific as yours below is a copy of part of a post of mine from a few months ago when I shoot up a book I read that I was not happy with.

This was what made me decide to use the Speer Gold Dot 115 gr. as my carry ammo.




Book Autopsy Report

Two hard covers -  402 pages or 201 sheets of paper - thickness 1 1/2 inches.

Even after expanding to produce an 1 1/8 inches exit hole the slugs still bore into a dead tree trunk.  I should of recovered one but didn't think about it.  Don't feel like going back to the scene of the book execution in the forest this morning and having to do another tick check.

I would say that Speer 9mm 115 gr GDHP can do the job - that is if you're ever attacked by a book.







Book wound channel

[flyandscuba]

Yep,  here is some "wetpack wounding" that oldgranpa and I experienced during our tests with the DPX load...

Entrance

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v250/flyandscuba/wetpackentryholeswith45acp.jpg



A few inches into the wetpack

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v250/flyandscuba/Damage4inchesdeepwith45acp.jpg

[R9SCarry]

Thx for your info fly - I must say I didn't find a huge difference between the 115 and 124 GD's really - just a shade more expansion on the oighter bullet - but either way - the bullet performance always impresses me.

I have ceased these days worrying about over penetration - I think we sometimes dwell on it too much.  As long as if in extremis, placement is good then I'll not be too concerned as long as the job gets done!

Hopefully, never will have to put that to the test.

[PJNevada]

Best we can tell, penetration in wetpack equates to roughly 2/3 what you would get in gelatin.

So, if you get 9 inches in wetpack -- you would expect to see 13.5 inches in gelatin.

I believe the FBI considers 12 inches in gelatin to be acceptable penetration.

Actually for what its worth, in your particular tests, what you've seen in terms of *penetration only* is typical of test shots into bare gelatin from 4" barrels. When .380 JHP expands well, it tends to penetrate properly prepared bare gelatin only 9 or 10 inches tops. When a well designed 9x19 JHP is shot into gelatin, and expands well, it will usually penetrate 12 to 14 inches (when shot from 4" barrels)

The problem with a wet pack is that although convenient for a basic, relative comparison of two bullets, it does not have good correlation to the terminal performance you would see in tissue. The wet-pack shear resistance is different, elasticity is diferent, both from tissue and ballistic gel. So even if the wet-pack penetration looks similar, you may get misleading results on expansion patterns. And given the improvised, non-standardized methods to create a wet pack, it is problematic to calibrate penetration from one setup to the next (on top of the correlation issues)

In this instance, if test shots were made into properly prepared and calibrated gelatin, using the shorter barrels found in pocket pistols, you would probably see more inconsistent expansion than if they were shot from longer barrels. And, of those .380's that did expand well, they would likely penetrate 6,7,8 inches. The standard pressure 9x19 JHP's that expand well would probably penetrate in the area of 9-12 inches, with perhaps a handful penetrating further. Then there is the issue of how well they would resist clogging.