Gloom, despair, agony on me..

[R9SCarry]

Zamboni - yes - indeed I hope I was not too nasty with my criticism of your tone.  It was a spur of moment assessment!

I do honestly share your frustration and angst - it is understandable.  I appreciate your acknowledgement of this and the apology - I guess we prickle sometimes

I really would like to see your #1 pup go back for a full appraisal.  If as you say you had several LEO buddies go shoot it - AND find problems then almost for sure, something ain't right.  However much I laud the Bros R and the gun - I (and they too I'll bet) would concede that a ''problem child'' just could escape the system!  Look at it this way - if it goes back and gets returned with the seal of approval then a) you may find all is well for you or b) you can sell in the firm knowledge that it has passed with flying colors.

I really would like you to come out of this, not being out of pocket and also - with hopefully not bitter memories of your experiences.  We here (me for sure anyways and I think I speak for others) - genuinely wish for you to find satisfaction - by one route or another.  We are a tight knit group - one guy's problems affect us all - and we wish only success to everyone - whatever that may finally mean.

[tracker]

One of the underlying bottom lines is that none of of us
wants a paper-weight that isn't worth a "Grover". That
will work itself out one way or the other and, I suspect, that
the problem will be resolved. What is frustrating is the
random characteristics of the FTF's.

[Skyhook]

I was remiss in not stating a cause for hope and high expectations.

Please note: One of the crippling characteristics which my gun possessed before I sent it back was the failure- using all kinds of various rnds- to hand feed from the magazine. The rnd would just nose into the front of the mag or the edge of the bbl and stop.

Karl's crew fixed that completely-- every time I inserted the mag and cycled the slide, a rnd was fed into battery.

Progress.

Now, if only the FTF can be addressed and mullified, I'll have the gun I always wanted. I haven't quit, yet.

[sslater]

This thread must be getting to championship length!
I've lost track of some of the terms:
FTF
FTFire - I intiially had a few with Remington economy box practice rounds.  Very hard primers was my conclusion
FTFeed -  I've had a few of these with 124 gr. GDHPs since changing recoil springs.  And they're the bad kind where a round doesn't fully chamber while the magazine tries to feed another round, jamming the gun solid.  It takes a shove with my StopStick on the round in the mag to get things working again. Makes me wish for a slide lock, because you really need three hands to clear the jam.
Next range session (08-Dec), I'm going to put the old spring back.  If I continue to have FTFeed malfunctions I'll be contacting the Rohrbaugh people.
Interesting that the first 200 rounds were troublefree & my troubles began after I changed the recoil spring because it had shortened by two full coils.  What's that old saying, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"  
  

[jarcher]

Interesting that the first 200 rounds were troublefree & my troubles began after I changed the recoil spring because it had shortened by two full coils.  What's that old saying, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"  
  

Interesting you say that.  Mine was failing to feed as well, until I let it sit for several months.  The spring is noticably weaker now and it feeds and fires just fine.  I'm not anxious to change the spring at all.  

[Michigunner]

When the time comes, I also will be very reluctant to make a spring change.

I bet we will learn more about this in the future, and possibly see a revision in the instructions.

[R9SCarry]

I plan when I do a spring change - a while to go yet - to leave pup with slide held back for some good while - to sorta ''pre-load'' the new spring.  

As we have all found, there is quite some change over time and use with a spring - but I wonder tho if when a spring gets significantly shortened and ''tired'' whether, despite better functioning, there is also a chance with the weaker effective rate, of ''beating up the gun''.

Seems there is a middle ground with this recoil spring as we see it so far - new is possibly too strong.  Old is maybe allowing excessive stress on the gun.  Somewhere between is the ideal.  I wonder what Wolff would say on this and whether despite all the R&D done - there is some scope remaining for useful change.

I look at the spring on my SIG's - this is a triple spiral wind of smaller gauge wire, to make up the whole - this is similar to what we see in AK's.  I wonder if this confers greater durability.  As time goes on I link problems more and more to spring matters.

Oh and BTW - folks may be interested to know that my SIG springs have ends which are not actual ''closed ends'' - many people make comments on the R9 spring having one open end!

[TW]

Please note: One of the crippling characteristics which my gun possessed before I sent it back was the failure- using all kinds of various rnds- to hand feed from the magazine. The rnd would just nose into the front of the mag or the edge of the bbl and stop.

Karl's crew fixed that completely-- every time I inserted the mag and cycled the slide, a rnd was fed into battery.

Progress.

Now, if only the FTF can be addressed and mullified, I'll have the gun I always wanted. I haven't quit, yet.

>>Hi Skyhook...

I'm a little confused here by what you said...  I'm hearing that Karl fixed the FTFeed problem...but then you say the gun still needs to have the FTF problem addressed...?  Do you mean FTFire...??

When my guns both started to experience FTFeed it was after their routine clean & lube jobs.  BTW...both guns were "cold" when I did this, having done my most recent shooting two days prior.  I mention this because Karl asked me about it...speculating that a "hot" gun, as in just come off the range, might be more prone to FTFeed.

Regarding springs...#1 gun experienced FTFeed after 20 shots on the large mainspring, #2 gun had 89 shots on it...so in my case I kinda doubt the new spring/old spring thing was an issue.  However of interest...as mentioned by SSLater - my guns both started to feed better after sitting in the safe untouched for several months.  Out of curiosity - does anyone know of a way to test the strength of the recoil springs...?...as in poundage when fully compressed, I guess.  This could prove useful information - if not with fixing the FTFeed issues, may be of help in determining scientifically when to change out springs.

My focus on FTFeed probs and fix is currently centered on the condition of the feed ramp attached to the barrel.  I base this in part on what Cuteo100 told us about treating his feed ramp to a polish and treatment with Miltec-1 oil...and the fact Karl spoke about having cleaned and polished mine while back in the shop...he might have said something about modifying them during our phone chat, but I don't have that in my notes (he did speak about modifying the back of the barrels, although I have yet to look and see what that is about).  But then there was no mention of modifying either the barrels or ramps in the written report - only mention of a "Barrel tune"...what ever that is...and it may be worth asking again.  Thoughts, anyone...?

Oh, and Skyhook...  I'm glad to hear you haven't given up on your R9 just yet.  To me,thus far, the headaches and delays have been worth it to have my R9s seemingly back to specks and in my pocket.  Notice I am using terms like "seemingly", because I too will have a limit as to what it's worth to keep them going.  I know you will have your limit as well.  I just that if you do get frustrated again that you don't take it out on the rest of us here...or at least not me...lol...!  Good luck with your gun and please keep us posted on things...maybe consider some of the issues and ideas folks have brought up this thread.

Later...TW<<

[sslater]

My personal experience with dual-recoil spring guns (my H&K USP .40 has one) is that when the outer spring starts to get too weak for the job you can actually feel the slide slamming back.  Change the spring and that "slamming" sensation goes away.  That's why I made the "If it ain't broke, don't fix it"
remark.  

When a spring takes a set, the spring rate doesn't change much but it generally loses the load specification at the spring installed height.  In an engine valve spring that means the spring can't hold the valve shut tightly enough.  On a recoil operated semi auto handgun I guess it would mean the spring can no longer supply enough muscle to make the slide reliably strip the next round from the magazine and go fully into battery.  

I like R9SCarry's plan to leave the slide back for a good long time.  Think I'll do that for two nights before my next range session.

If the pup wasn't so hard to field strip, I'd like to change springs in the middle of my range session.  But I can just picture that recoil spring cap zipping down the range.  I think I'll buy a spare cap before trying a for-real field strip.  

 

[Skyhook]

TW, there are two distinct FTF (failures to feed) which the R-9 presented me. One was the FTF while the gun was firing and trying to strip the next rnd from the mag.. the second was the FTF as I was attempting to rack the slide and get the empty gun into battery.

The former is the ongoing problem, the latter is that which the factory's team eradicated.

It is too dark to attempt a range session at present or I would attempt a run of those Speer Lawman rnds. through the gun.. maybe tomorrow.

As for giving up on the R-9, I'll do that only if I feel my options have been exhausted. That has not yet occurred..

[Skyhook]

I apologize for any confusion as to my use of FTF as it seems to mean 'failure-to-feed' AND, to some, 'failure-to-fire'.

My fault.

FTF has always, to me, meant failure to feed while MF meant 'misfire', ie, failure to fire.

These terms need to be defined and set apart one from the other. (What do the Marines use??)

[tracker]

Semper Fi!

[sslater]

Every activity seems to have its own language, doesn't it?
I can live with FTF meaning only failure to feed, & Misfire meaning failure to fire.  Now if we can get the rest of the gun world to agree.....
Some years back I was going nuts trying to pin down objectively what the various trigger-related terms meant.  My first resource was the NRA Fact Book.  Not much help there.  I wrote to the NRA (never got an answer) as well as a few of the technical type gunwriters like Dick Metcalf and Ross Seyfried (no answers from them either.)  Finally, Metcalf and Seyfried both authored articles on computerized trigger function analysis.  With graphs.  Now terms like take-up, let-off, stacking make as much sense to me as the obvious ones like grittiness, & overtravel.

  

[Skyhook]

Ok, I'll go along with theFTF = Failure to Fire
And MF = Misfire..

Thankfully we do not seem to be concerned with that 'KB!' thang..  

[Calvin Cooledge]

>>Hi Skyhook...

Regarding springs...#1 gun experienced FTFeed after 20 shots on the large mainspring, #2 gun had 89 shots on it...so in my case I kinda doubt the new spring/old spring thing was an issue.  However of interest...as mentioned by SSLater - my guns both started to feed better after sitting in the safe untouched for several months.  

Later...TW<<

As I've said before, I've just cleaned, lubed and installed a new spring* in my R9S, but have yet to test it.  I've saved the old spring, just in case. I'm really, really interested in this recoil spring topic. My curiosity is getting me to think that in an extremely small gun, like ours, the springs may be the single most important contributor to the function of it. I will go to the range soon, and see what happens. Now only if I had that shooting can...

Steve
*the one sent with the gun originally