First range trip – Very disappointing

[DDGator]

Jarcher -- a call from THE head man.  Not bad.  Should inspire confidence.

Just so you know though -- its Karl with a "K."  German all the way.  

[Jim]

Jarcher, I'm sure you will be pleased with the performance of your R9s when you get your gold dots...  I ordered mine from Ammo Man also and have had no problem with them nor the gun...  Please let us know how your gun performs with the G.D.     Thanks, Jim

[jarcher]

Here is the latest…

After my box of 115gr GDHP arrived, I sat a round next to a round of Winchester RA9T and compared them by eye.  These rounds look nearly identical.  By eye, you can not see a difference in dimensions.  The RA9T has a slightly deeper cavity and very slightly deeper cuts in the bullet.  I also have some old Winchester Silvertip (part number X9MMSHP).  I broke out my digital micrometer and did some measuring:


Round            primer      crimp      Length
                   width      width

115gr GDHP     .3875     .3765      1.115
Win RA9T        .386      .3765      1.115
WIN SHP         .388      .3765      1.0885

I was fairly discouraged to see that there were no significant differences between the dimensions of the RA9T and the GDHP.  

As it turns out, I was able to make it to the range tonight!  I didn’t have a lot of time so I didn’t get to do as through a test as I would have liked, but I did make notes.  My testing consisted of firing a number of 5 round magazines and tracking failures.  I also tried both magazines.

First, I loaded the original magazine (the one I used last time) with the GDHP.  I fired all 5 rounds in fairly rapid succession with no failures.  I was pretty excited by this!  I then reloaded the magazine and fired, but this time I experienced a failure to load, the same type of failure from my last range trip – on the third round.  I cleared the malfunction and fired the last three rounds without trouble.  I then loaded 5 more rounds and again, I had a failure to load on the third round.  I cleared the malfunction and fired the last three rounds without failure.

At this point, I set that magazine aside and took out the other one, which I had never used before.  With this magazine, I was able to fire three 5 round magazines of GDHP with no failures.

I next switched the ammo to the RA9T.  The first thing I noticed was that the recoil was significantly reduced from that of the GDHP.  I fired all 5 rounds without a failure.  I reloaded the magazine.  This time, a failure to load on the 3rd round again.  This one may have been my fault, as I tried to see what would happen if I held the trigger back.  I think I felt the gun get lose in my hand, although I am not sure.  I cleared the malfunction and fired the remaining three rounds.

I then fired three more 5 round magazines of RA9T, with only 1 additional failure.  Again, it was on the 3rd round in the magazine.  So that’s 2 failures in 5 magazines of RA9T.

Then, just for the heck of it, I fired two 5 round magazines of Winchester Silvertips with no failures.  The Silvertips were 115gr and had recoil comparable to the RA9T.

Each failure was identical.  The round was half out of the magazine and half in the chamber, with the slide stuck half closed.  It almost seemed like the nose was too high entering the throat, but this was very hard to tell.

A quick assumption to draw from this is that using the second magazine with 115gr GDHP would solve the problem, but I don’t feel there is enough data to support that conclusion yet.  A few things were different this time.  First, the pistol was lubed with TW25B instead of super lube, like it came from the factory.  This is probably not a factor since the lube didn’t change across magazines.

The next thing is that the magazine of course changed.  I probably should have switched back to that first magazine with GDHP to see if the failures continued. Maybe the next trip.

Also, the RA9T had a noticeable lower recoil.  This could indicate that maybe the recoil spring is a bit too powerful for the RA9T.  This is a complete guess, but maybe the slide does not cycle back as far or for as long, causing the cartridge ram to engage the top cartridge differently.
Given the nearly identical dimensions of the GDHP and the RA9T its very difficult to see why one should work while the other fails strictly from a dimensional standpoint.  There probably is a charge difference, which why I suspect the spring weight.  I didn’t try the second spring.

I’m not sure if this is going to help Karl or Mike diagnose the issue.  There may also be a combination of problems, such as a bad magazine and some issue with the chamber.

So that’s the latest installment.  Of course, this trip was much better than the last, and I am hoping that this is just a minor fix.  I’ll keep everyone posted as developments occur.

[TW]

>>Hi jarcher...

I have been following this thread with interest.  On this subject... I think you will find this forum, and the special web site set up by Chris, to be about as informative on issues of the R9 as any resource out there!  If it has happened to an R9...it was likely discussed here at one time or another, and there are a number of knowledgeable and helpful R9 owners around here.  My point being...you might want to search the achieves for issues of interest to you, including the present concern.

A side note...  You seem quite well versed on guns in general, but I would like to raise an issue which has troubled other knowledgeable R9 owners.  Has to do with changing lubes...bottom line - the guys at the shop recommend the use of Superlube, and for this particular gun, I have yet to hear of anything that works better.  I would suggest you stick with Superlube at least through this period of testing so that you can be comparing apples to apples with folks around here and back at the Rohrbaugh shop.  And bear in mind that a liberal use of this lube is recommended, especially on the slide and rails.  Take this for what it's worth - free advise.

Meanwhile, it's good to have you around and I am enjoying this thread a lot.  Keep up the good work and enjoy...!...TW<<  

[jarcher]

A side note...  You seem quite well versed on guns in general, but I would like to raise an issue which has troubled other knowledgeable R9 owners.  Has to do with changing lubes...bottom line - the guys at the shop recommend the use of Superlube, and for this particular gun, I have yet to hear of anything that works better.  I would suggest you stick with Superlube at least through this period of testing so that you can be comparing apples to apples with folks around here and back at the Rohrbaugh shop.  And bear in mind that a liberal use of this lube is recommended, especially on the slide and rails.  Take this for what it's worth - free advise.

Hi TW, thanks for the reply.  You raise a good point about switching more than one thing at a time.  Still, TW25B is a high quality gun lube.  Also, my first range trip was with the gun straight from the dealer.  I had broken it down, just to see how it's done, and it was well lubed with super lube.  It actually worked much better with the TW25B, although I think the lube had nothing to do with it.

To be frank, if this gun were really so sensitive that it worked with only one type of lube and one type of cartridge, then it's not the gun for me.  However, I don't think that is the situation.  It's clearly a high quality pistol that's well designed and built.

I spoke with Karl today.  He actually told me that they test with CCI Blazer, not GDHP.  Additionally, he said that the TW25B should be fine, and that the pistol should not be so ammo sensitive that it only works with Blazer.

For my part, I do understand, as Karl said, that this pistol needs quality factory ammo.  I would never consider feeding it anything else.  Actually, I treat all my pistols that way.  Factory, quality ammo only. Karl said that WWB ammo won't work well, and I can see why. Too much variation round to round in charge and dimensions.  

Additionally, I understand and agree that this is not a gun to spend a day shooting at the range and that, as it gets shot, because there is no escape for the dirt and crud, that a failure becomes more likely as more rounds are expended.  Still, this should not happen after 8 rounds, and Karl agreed with that as well.    

Anyhow, we agreed that the issue the pistol had is most likely a magazine issue, but he asked me to send the pistol, both magazines, and 25 rounds of each type of ammo (RA9T and GDHP) to him for testing.  I'll box it tonight and get it shipped tomorrow.

More to come...

  

[roadking522]

Jarcher - thanks for this thread.  A couple weeks back I went back and forth between buying a Kahr PM9 or a Rohrbaugh.  Wound up with the PM9 which has functioned flawlessly from the first round, regardless of what I feed it.  It has quickly become my favorite all time carry and has earned my trust after about 300 (again - flawless) rounds.  However, I still had this nagging urge to order an R9.  You can never have too many 9mm laying around, can you?!   But your discussion has convinced me to save the $900.00 or so bucks and the aggravation.    Good luck on your venture with this new piece.  If it happens to win the "agggravation contest" and you're back in the market for another "small" 9mm, check out the PM9.  

[Wayne]

roadking,

While I am glad to hear that you have acquired something that seems to work well for you, I am also sorry that it was not the R9.  IMHO, it is a shame that you were not able to base your purchase decision on the significantly high percentage or R9 owners that are very satisified, but rather the few who are not, for whatever reason.

I understand that everyone's CCW weapon choice can be a rather "personal experience", but given my own experience, -and it's just my opinion, I think you are missing out on a fantastic piece of engineering and workmanship.  I carry my R9 every day and don't think twice about reliability.

Again, glad to hear you have something to keep you and yours safe.  

[DDGator]

Roadking,

Not to start a battle with you (of course, as Admin, I always win anyway...  ), but you shouldn't base purchase decisions or justifications on Internet chatter.

Here is just a few of the results of a quick search on two forums for PM-9 info -- including a "Kaboom:"

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=72516&highlight=pm-9

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=39340&highlight=pm-9

http://www.glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=352683&highlight=pm9

http://www.glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=354648&highlight=pm9

http://www.glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=319140&highlight=pm9

Do these posts convince you to sell your PM-9?  Probably not.  Just like an isolated problem or two with an R-9 don't cause me any heartache about my gun which has been 100% for me.

If the PM-9 fits your needs, that is great for you.  But don't then justify your purchase by pointing to a thread here describing some teething problems with a new gun.

Best of luck with your Kahr.  I predict you will eventually own an R-9, but what do I know?  

[TW]

>>jarcher...

Some thoughts and a question...  Of everything you described of your shooting sessions the thing that stands out to me the most is the fact every one of your failures happened on the third round of given magazines...!!.!  

More so than the physical structure of the various bullet designs, this third round issue leads me to believe your problems might have to do with a progressive issue with each shot fired resulting in that third round not cycling properly...if that makes sense to you.  In other words, the first and second shots might position the third round in the mag to somehow come out of alignment resulting in that round not chambering.  Perhaps a stronger mag or recoil spring...??

Regarding the possibility of problem magazines as mentioned by Karl - what is it about the mags that Karl thinks might be a problem...?  The one thing about possible mag problems which some of us have looked at is the gap between the mag lips at the narrowest point.  Ideal seems to be ~ 0.320".  I own seven R9 mags which came in with widths ranging from 0.314" to 0.321".  Through Eric I was told the margin for error on a good mag was 0.005"...TW<<

[RJ HEDLEY]

Gator
A very good response to Roadking.  I wonder if he will be called by Kahr management in the event of a small problem with his PM 9?

[jarcher]

Well, I just wrote a nice letter and packaged up some test ammo, as Karl requested.  Enough procrastinating.  My new toy makes it’s trip home to NY tomorrow.  I just have to find the right size box...

[Newt]

Good luck, I'm sure your problem can and will be resolved.

[jarcher]

Hi All...

Here is the latest.  I just got a call from Eddy and Karl.  Of course, the phone chose to ring right as I had a handful of peanuts in my mouth.  Since I was expecting an important call I scooped up the phone and mumbled “eloowww (krunch) Diimmm  (krunch) Charcherrr (krunch krunch).”  Eddy said it was Eddy from Rohrbaugh and I said “Owh, (krunch) hhiighhh (krunch krunch).”  I hope they didn’t think me too rude.  Anyhow, I explained about the peanuts and then Eddy put Karl on.

By now I had pretty much swallowed the peanuts, so at least I could speak normally to Karl.  Karl explained that they did some grinding here and some polishing there, and now my pistol is up to the latest revision.  He said it ate two magazines of each of the two round types I sent, which was Winchester RA9T (147gr) and Speer 124gr GDHP.  He also fired some of their Blazer they test with.

Bottom line, Karl said it is “running like a top” and they are going to get it back to me quickly.  I can’t wait to get it beck, especially since Kevin’s holster arrived yesterday and I need to see how well it fits!  I’ll get it to the range this week and if it still fails, then that’s my fault and I’ll have to learn to shoot it.

So it looks like this will all have a happy ending, and just in time for the pocket carry weather here in New England.  I’ll let everyone know how it shoots.

[R9SCarry]

Sounds good!

Hopefully the tuning should have kwelled any lil' gremlins and all will be good.  Sounds like enough testing done to prove that pup and hope it'll be as good for you.

(Ever tried sneezing halways thru chewing peanuts??  And forgetting to place hand in the way??   )

[jarcher]

Well, I took the R9s back to the range today to try out the fixes.  I was shooting Speer Gold Dot 115gr standard pressure ammo.  The pistol came back from Rohrbaugh cleaned and lubed, so I have not broken it down since it came back.  

Mixed results today.  The first magazine had a failure to feed on the third round.  I thought that was very strange.  What is it about the third round?  I shot several more magazines and on average got the same type of failure about every 1.5 magazines.  I took a close look at the jam.  I should have thought to bring my digital camera, but I will next time.  Anyhow, a close look seemed to hint that the primer ridge of the round being fed was getting stuck in the notch right in front of the primer of the round below it.  The round was half out of the magazine, half in the chamber, just like before.

I had an inspiration and dropped the mag.  The instant I released the magazine catch, the slide slammed closed.  I was able to repeat this failure twice more and execute the same fix – dropping the mag – each time.

I then remembered something we used to do in the army with the M16 magazines.  After loading them, we would tap the back edge of them firmly on a table or the ground.  This was to seat the ammo at the back of the magazine.

So I tried this.  I got through 7 magazines with no problem.  At that point, I had decided that this was enough for one range session.  Next time, I’ll keep more careful track and see.  Tonight there will be a good cleaning and maybe another range trip on Wednesday.

Since Karl told me their opinion is that the pistol is fine, I tend to believe that the pistol really is fine.  He tested 4 magazines with the ammo I provided, which was Winchester RA9T and Speer GDHP, both JHP rounds.  

So I accept that I may be shooting it incorrectly, but still, a failure to feed is usually not a shooter problem.  A failure to extract is.  And why did I suddenly get through 7 magazines if it is my fault?  I also know that JHP rounds tend to be shorter than the Blazer FMJ rounds that Rohrbaugh tests with.  If tapping the magazines after loading reliably solves my issue, I’ll be happy with that.  I just wonder if this is a fix that can work when magazines stay loaded over time.

If the problem is my technique, that may be harder to solve.  The gun is not designed for a lot of shooting, as Karl says, so I am not going to get a lot of practice with it.  If I have to grip it exactly right each time I shoot it I am concerned that, in a stressful situation, I won’t grip it right when I need to most, and it might jam.  If this is the case, this might not be the pistol for me.  

Maybe one or two more range sessions will tell.