First range trip – Very disappointing

[jarcher]

I finally got to shoot my new R9s today.  I ran about 60 rounds of three types of ammo through it.  I experienced many failures, pretty much all failures to feed, one of which was extremely difficult to cure.

First, I tried American Eagle 147gr flat nose ammunition.  This failed to feed about 1 time out of 5 to 7.  The failure mode was unusual and I had never seen it before.  It looked like the round, after failing to feed, was nearly standing upright out of the magazine.

Next was American Eagle 115gr ball ammo.  This worked pretty well, but still failed occasionally.  

Finally, and most important, was Winchester RA9T, which is 147gr JHP self defense ammo.  This ammo works flawlessly in every pistol I have tried it in, until today.  This failed much less than the flat nose ammo, but much more than the ball ammo.  On one round, while loading the pistol, there was a failure to feed with this ammo.  I could pull the slide back, but I could not get the round to come out of the chamber and I could not, of course, get the magazine removed.  With great difficulty, I was able to hold the slide back with one hand while freeing the round with the other hand.

This was the first ammo I ever put through this pistol and I bought it new.  It was dirty when I received it so I assume it was tested at the factory.  Does anyone know what ammo the factory tests with?  

Does anyone else use Winchester RA9T?  I am wondering if this pistol in general is very ammo sensitive or if mine just has some issues.  I see you guys use a lot if 115gr GDHP, which is fine ammo, but I think this pistol should work with any quality ammo.   I expected this pistol to work out of the box, but does it need a break in period?  Needless to say, after $950.00, I am not very pleased.

And yes, I know how to shoot a pistol, even a small light one.  

I plan to carefully clean it tonight and I can try it again in a few days.  Before I do, I would appreciate any suggestions.  I’ll probably call the factory tomorrow as well, if I get a chance, to see what they think.

Thanks...

Jim

[Fud]

I, too, have been less than pleased with the reliability of the gun. Gold Dots seem to work well -- especially 115's. Bit disappointed that FMJ's sometimes fail to feed well.

[R9SCarry]

Jim ... take a peek at this link - a page on my FAQ site

http://www.acbsystems.com/boards/rohrbaugh/basefile/tumbling.htm

It addresses the fact that tumbling can occur but also - you'll see a pic of different ammo.  Note the (to me) quite large spread in OAL.  I get the impression that shorter rounds can be more problematic.  The two Gold Dots - 115 and 124 are what I find flawless for function.

I do have issues with some FMJ but again - they usually seem to be the shorter rounds.  I do think this can be a factor.

I guess in theory this gun should digest anything and everything - but it does seem not to like some.  With yours, it does seem - superficially right now - it is more fussy than I'd expect.  Speak to Eric and give him a run-down of your problems.

[jarcher]

Thanks R9Carry...

My theory was also that the shorter rounds failed.  The flat nose were very short, but looking at your web site, the ammo I was using - the Ranger 147gr SXT,  is the second longest round.  There is no GDHP there, do you have any idea how long that round is?

[FireBreather01]

According to my calipers my GDHP 115 gr rounds are 1.125" long.

[R9SCarry]

Sorry Jim - forgot that pic had no GD's ... FB is about on the nail - in fact yeah - I had ''mic'd'' one at 1.124" ... pretty much amongst the longest round.  

I think Rangers fed OK - just was not so impressed with apparent terminal performance IIRC.  Either test #2 or Test #3 has pics of the bullets, out of wet pack.

Another point BTW - that I made was - some bullets seemed awful ''marginal'' on dia.  I mean - 9mm's are conventionally .356 and yet - many bullets were well down from this - which affects IMO the engraving with rifling.  Tho that is not in the area of feeding, per your problems.

[jarcher]

Thanks everyone.  I didn't see any evidence of tumbling, except maybe on just 1 hole.  Recoil was heavy but manageable and accuracy, at first glance, seemed okay.  I was mostly preoccupied with the poor feeding.

I'll call Eric and see what he says.  I can find some GDHP to try.  All I have on hand is the +P GD, so I need to order some.

[jarcher]

I called down to NY, and spoke to a woman who I assume was Maria, although I didn't ask.  She imediately said I should use GDHP.  I asked her of the pistol was designed around any particular round, and she said she woul dhave to ask someone to call me back.  

She also said they have all been sick, so the call won;t be until tomorrow or Monday.  That's fine, I can wait.  

Where do you guys get your GDHP?  All thre local places have only the +P stuff...

[DDGator]

The R-9 runs on very tight tolerances.  The tighter the gun, the more ammo sensitive it may be.  "Loose" guns like Glocks tend to be more forgiving with ammo types.

The recommended round is the Speer Gold Dot JHP -- in 115 or 124g varieties.  This is a very popular round and is widely used in law enforcement agencies.  All the agencies around me use Gold Dots.

The gun was not designed around a particular round, but the factory now recommends Gold Dots.  Certainly there are other expensive guns that are designed around particular rounds.  The Seecamp comes to mind -- which was originally recommened for use only with Winchester Silvertips.

Eric is firmly of the opinion that this gun is a sports car -- not a family truckster.  He recommends using only premium JHP ammo.  You wouldn't put 87 octane in your Ferrari, and there is no real need to run FMJ target ammo in your R-9.

The factory will certainly help you, but try the Gold Dots before you allow yourself to be disappointed with your purchase.  

My gun has never hiccuped on anything -- but all I have fed it is Gold Dot JHPs (115g and 124g) and about 50 Winchester White Box FMJs.  The Win White Box worked for me, but others have had issues with it and Eric doesn't recommend it.

Hang in there, Jarcher.  It will all work out -- I promise.  

[jarcher]

Eric is firmly of the opinion that this gun is a sports car -- not a family truckster.  He recommends using only premium JHP ammo.  You wouldn't put 87 octane in your Ferrari, and there is no real need to run FMJ target ammo in your R-9.
 
The factory will certainly help you, but try the Gold Dots before you allow yourself to be disappointed with your purchase.  

I would just run FMJ ammo for practice, as it's lots cheaper than quality self defense ammo.  I used good quality FMJ and, by the way, it worked better than the JHP I used.  The flat nose rounds failed miserably, but I am happy to use ball instead for range practice.  

I agree that GDHP is great quality stuff.  I used the Winchester RA9T because I prefer a heavier bullet, especially from a shorter barrel.  Balistics testing shows this round to do as well as +P and +P+ rounds on both penetration and expansion and, since I can't use +P in the R9, I decided to try the RA9T.

I'm not opposed to using GDHP, as it also tests extremely well, although the standard pressure GDHP does not do as well as the RA9T.  Still, the difference is not enough to get excited over.

I did some web searching, but everyone seems to have the +P variety of GDHP.  Can you point me to a source of standard pressure GDHP?  I asked Maria and she referred me to the company they buy it from, but that company won't sell direct.  No one here in RI stocks this stuff.

[R9SCarry]

Haven't checked Jim - but I'd feel sure Ammoman could stock it.  IIRC http://www.ammoman.com/

And maybe - run a search thru Google too.

[jarcher]

Yeah, Ammoman is where I usually buy stuff.  They have the 115gr reclassified GDHP, which I guess is good enough for testing.  Frankly, I have never had any GD reclassified ammo fail, so I might even carry that if it tests out okay in the R9.

Thanks for the reply.

[jarcher]

I just got a call from Mike at Rohrbaugh.  He called and assured me the issue will be resolved, and I am confident it will be.

We discussed the possible causes as a magazine failure (which I had not thought of) and also possibly maybe an issue with the barrel.  

He said if I want to I can do some more testing over the weekend then follow up with Carl early next week.  I promised if I do to keep careful track of what fails how many times, and I also agreed to send them a few rounds back with the pistol.  Mike said that typically the magazines are fitted to the pistols, so even if it turns out that one of the magazines is the issue the pistol is going back.  

I also have some 115gr GDHP ordered, so I might just wait for that to arrive before I do the testing.

I think late tonight I'll also measure the ammo I was using and post the diameter and OAL here, just in case anyone is interested.

So we're on the road to recovery!  

[tracker]

Not to be critical, but why not use the recommended
ammo in the first place?

[jarcher]

Not to be critical, but why not use the recommended
ammo in the first place?

For a few reasons.  First, I didn't know there was, and in fact I don't think there is, an officially recommended ammo.  I have learned that Rohrbaugh tests with GDHP, which is high quality self defense ammo and is very popular with forum members.  But the pistol was not specifically designed around this and probably should be able to digest a wider selection of quality ammo.

That said, the main reason is because I had a bunch of Winchester RA9T on hand.  It is the only standard pressure 9mm SD I do have on hand.  It is extremely high quality ammo and does extremely well in lab testing.  This standard pressure round performs as well as or better than other SD HP ammo that is +P and +P+, but with substantially less recoil.  Additionally, heavier bullets tend to perform better from short barrels than lighter bullets.

To me, all this made the RA9T the perfect ammo for the R9, at least from a theoretical standpoint.

Next, there is the issue of practice.  SD ammo is expensive.  I like to practice with my carry gun regulary, and while it is good to shoot what you carry, the cost can be a bit high.  So I wanted to shoot range ammo.  I bought some American Eagle 147gr from Ammoman, but I didn't realize at the time it was flat nose.  Although, had I known, I would have bought it anyhow, assuming it would not be a problem.

Carl phoned me today and told me the flat nose won’t work, which I can understand.  That does not bother me at all.  He just wanted to discuss the situation and let me know they would get a resolution.  He didn’t sound well at all and I think he needed to be in bed instead of on the phone, so I especially appreciate that he called.

I ordered some 115gr GDHP (reclassified) from Ammoman, and I’ll run that through my R9 when it comes.  I’ll let everyone know how I make out.