Frangible ammo through an R9...

[TW]

>>I spent an enjoyable day at the range today, and put my R9 through some new paces for the fun of it.  I've heard folks ask about how frangible ammo works through the 'lil pups and so today I tried some - put four clips of 100 gr Speer Frangible stuff through my R9...and it worked flawlessly.  So for folks in tight spaces = planes, trains, and automobiles - this may be the ticket you are after...!  Enjoy and be safe...!...TW<<

[R9SCarry]

Good to hear of the good functionality ... but hey - ain't that stuff wicked spendy?? I have meant to look out for some but confess, price had somewhat put me off too.

I have some wierd recollection of $33 per box .. not sure where I got it from.

[GeorgeH]

Frangible ammo isn't cheap.

But I think RBCD or Magsafe Defender rounds are almost custom made for the Rohrbaugh.

[FireBreather01]

Frangible may have some narrow applications but I don't trust the stuff. From various data and tests I've seen I would much rather have hollow points in my gun. Over penetration and ricochets are unlikely with modern HP's and frangible rounds may not make it past jackets, buttons, pens, bones, whatever - just my .02.

[GeorgeH]

Hi Fire:

When I was first introduced to Magsafe in 1990, I did some "fun testing." Back then I didn't know anything about jello testing. My focus was on tactical penetration--against hard objects. I did fun testing for about 18 months to 2 years. By the time I was done, I was sold on frangile ammo.

Today, I like three: Glasser (owned by CorBon), Magsafe, and RBCD. Against a hard target these three types of cartridges act like a FMJ bullet. They are each designed to break apart only in a fluid rich enviornment.

There is a very emotional debate over frangible ammo. But the bottom line is that we each must make our own informed decision. Because the bottom line is that it is our life that we are dealing with.

[FireBreather01]

Thanks for the input - I've done little of that type of testing - some with Glasers, I should probably do some more with up to date ammo. It would be a bit expensive but a lot of fun. I would like to get some ballistic gelatin and put various obstacles in front of it, like clothing, some hard objects, etc.

This may be a good project once spring arrives and days are longer and warmer. It's always nice to have something a little different to do at the range other than just punch paper!

[GeorgeH]

Hi Fire:

Glasser was the first frangible ammo to actually work for defensive purposes. The original Glasser was shot pellets encased in a truncated cone jacket suspended in liquid Teflon. The round was then changed to promote greater tactical penetration. The idea was to punch through bone and then create a massive, but fairly shallow, wound channel to promote bleeding.

Magsafe was designed to have greater penetration than Glasser with multiple wound channels instead of the Glasser shot cloud. Magsafe uses various shot sizes suspended in an epoxy matrix.

RBCD was originally designed to be AP. This bullet was designed specifically for anti-terroist military and police action. The original bullet was lead free metal power held in place with a 3M plastic encased in a jacket on top of a plastic pellet. Since the powered metal was harder than steel, it would punch through dimond plate like butter, expanding like an umbrella in a fluid rich enviornment (ie. a body).

The non-military version uses lead power, but is otherwise the same construction. By using lead, it was classified as non-AP and approved for civilian sales by the BATF.

Since 1990, I've used frangible ammo in all of my pocket guns. I do so as a force multiplier. My intent for the defensive use of a firearm is to stop an attacker. It makes no difference to me if he lives or dies, just so he is not a threat to me or to my loved ones.

The key to stopping power is bullet placement. The benefit of frangible ammo is when bullet placement is less than ideal. These bullets create such massive injuries, that they cannot go unnoticed by a BG.

My primary defensive handgun is a Glock 36. I have never used frangible ammo in that gun. In fact I have never considered frangible ammo in any caliber larger than 38 Special. But when dealing with bullets smaller than .357, I view frangible ammo as a plus.

Right now, I still use standard pressure Magsafe Defender rounds in all of my pocketguns. But I will switch over to RBCD in my 32 ACP, and maybe my 380. As to my Rohrbaugh, I think I will stay with Magsafe.

[R9SCarry]

George - interesting to hear your take .... can you give sourcing for RBCD - and cost?  It's not something I have ever seen on the shelves in any local gun shops.

[GeorgeH]

Hi R9SCarry:

You can find Glasser and Magsafe at gun stores and gun shows. They are sold in blister packs (Magsafe comes 8 to a pack, I don't know about Glasser--my guess would be 6 to a pack). RBCD is sold in boxes of 20.

Glasser and Magsafe sells for somewhere between $13-18 per pack. You can find "deals" on them, but even with a deal--it will be expensive. RBCD sells for about $34 a box.

Standard pressure (the "Defender" series) Magsafe 9mm has 1,800 fps with 444 fpe. RBCD screams at 2010 fps with 539 fpe.

RBCD is sold by various retailers, but it is easier to buy directly from them.

[R9SCarry]

Thank you George - so my ''guestimate'' on the price was close ... or more likely I had half remembered a mention before.! Again ... ouch!

I must think about getting some I think - if only to evaluate for self.

[FireBreather01]

George - that's an interesting history on the development of frangibles. From your knowledgeable data base do you know the ability of any of the rounds you are discussing to break or shatter bone? One reason why I have always shied away from those rounds is the possibility of a situation of a close attacker, ie: knife, that I must be able to hit and break the pelvic bones - nothing will drop an attacker more quickly - other than a hit directly to the medulla. The other is worry about punching through a windshield.

I know those are isolated situations but I have always wanted something I could be completely confident would serve me well in virtually all defensive situations.

Thanks for your insight - it is through these discussions that I gather info and get curious enough to do more research - whether it's reading or range time.

[Calvin Cooledge]

Hi Guys!

Sorry to not chime in very frequently, but the Christmas season was brutal, work-wise, and I'm just now seeing blue sky.

Yes, I was the one who broke down and ordered some RBCD
'Spendy' ammo. I got it a couple of weeks ago but have not had time to get to the range and shoot a bullet. Cause that's all I can afford of this stuff. At these prices, the rounds should have GPS capabilities;^)

I got a box o' twenty each of the 9mm and the .45ACP. When I get back from the range, I'll have a report.

Oh, PMC makes their 'Green' frangible ammo, which has no heavy metals at all. In fact they claim it'll clean your barrel for you. Only thing is, you gotta order it from your dealer, since none seem to stock it. I'd love to try it, but I'm not buying a whole case of ammo before I know if it'll work.

Comments, anyone? Wanna split a case with me?

Calvin

[BillinPittsburgh]

You can see some gelatin tests at http://www.goldenloki.com, although not necessarily in the specific gun you are interested in.  The data on this site caused me to acquire some RBCD for my Kel-Tec P-32, and I have found the energy level (at least when measured by felt recoil) to be comparable to Cor-Bon.

George, what is your reasoning for choosing Magsafe in some calibers and RBCD in others?  For me, I prefer RBCD because of cost, and because of the uniform bullet density which gives me the same accuracy as a JHP.

Like George, I generally think that frangible ammo makes the most sense in pocket guns, because the limited accuracy inherent in the gun makes the lack of accuracy of some (Glaser and Magsafe) and the loss of velocity of others (RBCD) largely irrelevant, and because I want as much effectiveness as I can possibly squeeze from a (at least without a Rohrbaugh) small-caliber gun.  With the Rohrbaugh, the standard-pressure limit would seem to make RBCD an attractive choice if functioning is OK.

[R9SCarry]

Bill - useful link - pity no Gold Dots put thru the gel test but - nonetheless most interesting. RBCD in particular!!

I have added a link to the Goldenloki 9mm gel test page on my R9 FAQ site ... thanks for that.

[GeorgeH]

Hi Firebreather01:

Not all frangible bullets are designed for defensive use. Most frangible ammo is designed to be "range safe" ammo.

But Magsafe, Glasser, and RBCD were designed and intended for LEO/military use and they, as a class, have excellent tactical penetration. Against a hard target, such as a steel car door, or a wooden door, or bone they act like a FMJ.

Keep in mind that water doesn't compress--the whole concept of hydraulics is based on that. That fact is what causes the bullet to fragment.

Where frangible ammo is criticized is their limited penetration in a fluid rich enviornment.

Before he died, Joe Zambone, the founder of Magsafe kept track of every shooting where his ammo was used. It was easy for him to follow, since his early customers were almost exclusively police agencies. One incident that he use to crow about was a lateral shooting. In that incident a bullet hit the BG's right arm and fragmented there. Only one pellet reached the heart, but the bullet severed the bad guys's arm. From his perspective--the bullet failed--but what a failure.

But for me, the bottom line is that I have confidence in the stopping power of a small caliber frangible round.