Author Topic: big slow bullet vs small fast bullet  (Read 11671 times)

Offline riffraff

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big slow bullet vs small fast bullet
« on: February 28, 2008, 12:16:22 PM »

Hello Everyone.

I wish to gain a better understanding of this topic.

Why is it that all the armies of the world have gone from the larger rifle calibers: 8mm, .308, .303 etc.  to the smaller lighter faster bullets in their main battle rifles?

And why is it that most armies have either stayed with or switched from larger(or in some cases smaller)handgun bullets to the 9mm?

I am all ears.   Please educate us all.

Mike
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Offline Richard S

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Re: big slow bullet vs small fast bullet
« Reply #1 on: February 28, 2008, 04:57:07 PM »
The 2006 article entitled "Assault Rifles and their Ammunition: History and Prospects," by Anthony G. Williams, co-editor of Jane's Ammunition Handbook,, may be of interest:

http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/Assault.htm



 



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Offline riffraff

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Re: big slow bullet vs small fast bullet
« Reply #2 on: February 28, 2008, 05:28:41 PM »

Good article,  

It pretty much told me what I already knew about the rifle.

Did not address pistols at all.

For the rifle the reasons for going smaller and faster are:

Lighter gun
Lighter ammo
More controllable, especially on full auto

Some of the info can be transfered to the pistol question.

less powerful(smaller) round= less recoil+easier to regain target so I will say more controllable for the smaller round.

None of the other advantages on the rifle side can be applied to the pistol side.  You just don't save that much weight going from a 45 frame size and 45 cal bullet to a 9mm frame size and bullet.

I gather the armies of the world WANT a more powerful(larger) rifle round but can't have it due to present day physics.
A also gather that the armies of the world could easily have a larger more powerful pistol round but have found that they don't NEED it.

I still haven't learned much that I did not already know but I am willing to listen.

Anybody?

Mike
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Offline Richard S

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Re: big slow bullet vs small fast bullet
« Reply #3 on: February 28, 2008, 06:51:42 PM »
Of possible interest with regard to firearms ammunition, the FBI Academy Firearms Training Unit publication, "Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness" -- 19 years old but still being cited for reference:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf
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Offline riffraff

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Re: big slow bullet vs small fast bullet
« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2008, 07:41:31 PM »

More excellent info.  Still very little which I did not already know.  I actually gathered from the article that the 9mm is in fact adaquate as a man stopper.  Very good article even though it is a bit dated.  Sometimes solid info. just doesn't change much over time.

So far I haven't learned much about my inquiry.  Perhaps I did not word my original post correctly.  I will recheck it.

Any other facts or opinions, anyone?

Mike

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Offline tracker

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Re: big slow bullet vs small fast bullet
« Reply #5 on: February 28, 2008, 10:19:56 PM »
Sgt. York did all right with the heavy, antique stuff. Maybe,
it is the Indian and not the arrows that matter most.

Offline Richard S

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Re: big slow bullet vs small fast bullet
« Reply #6 on: February 29, 2008, 07:32:19 AM »
Quote
Sgt. York did all right with the heavy, antique stuff. Maybe, it is the Indian and not the arrows that matter most.

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Offline capt.koolaid

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Re: big slow bullet vs small fast bullet
« Reply #7 on: March 29, 2008, 10:53:32 PM »
Bored and have some time to kill so ill chirp in all be it late: Its been explained to me the military prefers 9mmX19 due to its speed and tendency to penetrate thus working better with some barriers and creating entrance AND exit wounds (thus two holes to bleed istead of one) and arguably if a soldier is wounded it will tie up atleast another if not two more soldiers to tend to the casualty. From a law enforcement standpoint, I remember when the switch to semi-autos began in full swing in my neck of the woods (1985). At that time, thier were no .40 cal or .357 Sig, just .45 or 9mm. The wonder nines with thier 15 round mags seemed to be in demand to combat the street thugs rumored to be carrying uzis, tec-9s, and other high cap weapons. The problem was most cops want a compact pistol for 8 hours of carry, and wanted bigger bullets. So, small barrel pistols like Smiths 6906 and 147 grain bullets became the preffered piece. Small, light, easy to carry and great for both uniform and plain cloathes carry, this set up became almost standard in my area. Heres were it went south for the 9mm. The 147 grain is a proven poor manstopper in statistics kept. If you choose to rely on statistics you will note the more effective 9mm loads are lighter 115 grain usually driven to +P+ velocitys. While this mimics the original 9mm Luger load, most 9mm rounds manufactured in the U.S. are behind thier Europeon counterparts. At any rate, the 147 grain loads were subsonic, and when coupled with shorter barrels, the velocity and performance dropped to less than acceptable for many agencys.

NOTE: the opinions expressed were not MY doing, only whats been spread around the campfire and f.w.i.w. I use 147 grain bullets in my R-9.  ;)

Offline tracker

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Re: big slow bullet vs small fast bullet
« Reply #8 on: March 30, 2008, 02:23:13 PM »
Kool,
You and at least one other notable on the forum use 147 gr.
in the R9. What is the thought process there and why does
that work for you?

Offline Aglifter

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Re: big slow bullet vs small fast bullet
« Reply #9 on: March 30, 2008, 11:33:33 PM »
Go 10MM, heavy and fast...  I'm not all that happy about regular 9MM, but a 9MM +p+ is almost the same as a 357 Mag.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2008, 11:41:03 PM by Aglifter »
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Offline Richard S

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Re: big slow bullet vs small fast bullet
« Reply #10 on: March 31, 2008, 10:21:45 AM »
Quote
Kool,
You and at least one other notable on the forum use 147 gr.
in the R9. What is the thought process there and why does
that work for you?

I've been using the Remington Golden Saber 147-grain BJHP ammunition in my R9 for four reasons:

1. My "pup" likes it.
2. I've been impressed with the design and quality of the round and its performance for me at the range.
3. Not wanting over-penetration in a defensive round, I like the 147-grain Golden Saber's reported ballistics out of short test barrels (e.g., out of a 4" barrel the round was reported to produce 13.20" penetration through clothed gelatin with 0.66" expansion).
4. I've always been a proponent of "throwing the biggest rock possible."   ;)

I'm not a "preacher" on this subject and freely recognize that reasonable minds will differ.  Here's a link to one source for comparison:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/ammo_data/9mm.htm

[size=10][Edited to correct typographical errors.][/size]

« Last Edit: March 31, 2008, 11:00:42 AM by Richard_S »
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Offline tracker

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Re: big slow bullet vs small fast bullet
« Reply #11 on: March 31, 2008, 10:47:57 AM »
Thanks, Richard.

Offline capt.koolaid

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Re: big slow bullet vs small fast bullet
« Reply #12 on: April 01, 2008, 07:06:50 PM »
Quote
Kool,
You and at least one other notable on the forum use 147 gr.
in the R9. What is the thought process there and why does
that work for you?
Sorry I took so long to get back with you, (computer crashed). I use the 147 grain winchester sxt L.E. round because it seems to function well in the R-9 as does Golden Sabres, and of course Gold-dots. What Ive seen is the bullets tend to key hole. as such, I like a longer bullet for more emphisis on the tumbling. I also like a longer area of engagement with a weapon like the R-9 with a considerable amount of "free-bore". someone mentioned +P+ but I dont even shoot +Ps out my R-9. In conclusion I like the heavy bullet for greater penetration and if it does expand, thiers more thier to "mushroom" out.

Offline Aglifter

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Re: big slow bullet vs small fast bullet
« Reply #13 on: April 02, 2008, 12:51:09 AM »
I didn't mean to imply that I shoot +p+ out of the pup -- I only shoot regular pressure loads out of it.
And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.