.22 v. .25 for a pocket pistol

[BillinPittsburgh]

Since this forum is populated with some of the most knowledgeable pocket gun people around, many of whom were into pocket guns when .22 and .25 were the only options (which really wasn't long ago - the Seecamp was the only game in town above .25 until the late 1990's), I thought it a good place to ask this question.

My wife is starting to get serious about carrying a gun at least some of the time.  She recently asked me to get her a gun purse for her 4" Springfield XD.  I ordered one that she picked out from Coronado Leather, but would also like her to have smaller guns that she could potentially carry on her person.  As I see it, she will need 2 more guns:  one that is as small and light as possible while staying within the usual minimum caliber guidelines (hopefully a subcompact 9mm), and a true pocket pistol.

She does not have particularly high recoil tolerance, and did not like my Kel-Tec P-32 the 2 times she tried it.  This is the lowest recoiling .32 pocket pistol on the market, so that means a .22 or a .25.  She isn't happy with having to lower the hammer between chambers on a NAA mini-revolver, so that means a small semi-auto the only option.

I figure the likely best choice is here:

http://www.taurususa.com/products/gunselector-results.cfm?series=SF1

The DAO trigger - which I understand to be relatively light - and tip-up barrel should make it very easy for her to use.  Most people I know who own these guns like them.

My question is:  should I go with the .22 or the .25?

In the .22's favor:

1)  I have a bit more confidence in the ability of the .22 to penetrate to the vitals.

2)  Inexpensive practice ammo.

3)  Can use CCI Stinger or Quick Shock ammo.

In the .25's favor:

1)  One more round of magazine capacity, which could provide one more critical chance to neutralize an attacker with these less than optimally effective calibers.

2)  Some users seem to believe that the .25 is more reliable in these small autos.  If true, that, by itself, is the deciding factor.

3)  The ability to use Magsafe ammo.

So, what are all of your thoughts?

Is the .25 more reliable than the .22 in these small pistols?

Would going with something like Magsafe or Quickshock improve the chances of hitting something vital, or give up too much needed penetration?

Is one more effective than the other?  If the .22 is more effective, is the difference worth giving up one round of magazine capacity?

Other gun suggestions are also welcome.

Thanks in advance.

[Salute]

Not a 22 or 25.

The Seecamp 32 she may really like.

Feel is much different then a Keltec. Keltec is lighter but larger. I've seen reliability problems with the Keltec numerous times. There really isn't many reliability probs with the Seecamp. Its heavier and smaller. [but not heavy] High quality. Size and recoil [not much] about the same as a small 22 or 25. Magsafe, no problem that i've seen.
Looks and feels like what will become an heirloom....and its very attractive.  

I also like it in an RJ Hedley holster. Thats my taste.

Good Luck.....................Salute'

[Aglifter]

A Colt Pocket auto might be a bit big, but there's almost no recoil -- my father picked up a berretta tomcat in 32, even comes w. night sights -- light, very little recoil, and pretty small.  The first pull is pretty stiff, but it then switches to a single action pull that's quite nice.

[BillinPittsburgh]

Thanks for the replies so far.

My P-32 has been VERY reliable, with about 1,500 rounds through it, aalthough I do use heavier (11 lb.) recoil springs and magazine springs.  I have shot a rental North American Arms .32, which is very similar in size, weight, and function to a Seecamp, and recoil is SIGNIFICANTLY less comfortable than the P-32.  The tilt barrel design results in much less recoil than a straight blowback, even if the straight blowback has more weight.  If a Seecamp would work, I'd get her one in a second, but unless there is some significant difference between the Seecamp and NAA that makes the Seecamp significantly more comfortable to shoot, I don't see it working for her.

The Tomcat may be worth trying if I can find a rental one for her to shoot.

Still interested in answers to the original .22 v. .25 question.

[Ubik380]

The Seecamp has a retarded-blowback action that uses rings cut into the chamber to hold the expanded case until the pressure drops and releases the case from the chamber. I don't know if the Guardian has this. I find the Seecamp "snappy" but not uncomfortable.

[Michigunner]

Bill,

One of the most popular guns around is the S&W 642 .38 Special +P.  It is very small and light.

The hammer is concealed inside the frame.

I expect it would be more reliable than a pistol.  I use Gold Dot Short Barrel ammo with a muzzle energy of 222 ft/lbs.  That should be adequate for a closeup emergency.

Bill

[riffraff]

BillinPittsburgh,

To answer your question definately go with the 22 over the 25.  A gun you might want to consider is the Walther TPH.  It has been a while since I have checked so I don't know if it is still in production.

Mike

[PursuitSS]

BillinPittsburgh,

To answer your question definately go with the 22 over the 25.  A gun you might want to consider is the Walther TPH.  It has been a while since I have checked so I don't know if it is still in production.

Mike

Sorry, it's no longer in production. It is an outstanding pistol, IF you can find one of the German made models I'd grab it in a heartbeat!

PursuitSS

[capt.koolaid]

What a great question! The .22 being rim fire with a large rim has been known to problematic in reliable feeding and ignition. To assist in feeding in semiautos the .25 was born or so the story goes. The first "pocket auto" had a pretty good rep, as John Browning evidently used a rather fast burning powder in the .25 a.c.p. since it was DESIGNED as a pocket auto/round, in comparison to the .22 long RIFLE, designed originaly for a long gun.  Today many enjoy the .22 magnum in pocket guns like the N.A.A. mini revolvers but...Even North American Arms concedes alot of the magnums slow burning powder is still left burning after the bullets already exited the barrel in PISTOL size barrels, thus adding only in muzzle flash and report. ( A good intimidation factor I guess if not a tactical hinderance) In further praise of the .25 auto, It actually operates at a higher level of pressure than then the .32 auto!,  ( I know, I know, bigger is better) Yet the small grain wieght realy keeps recoil down even in diminutive pistols. If it were me, Id go with a .25 auto. If you think a hollwpoint bullet or other MANSTOPPER WHOPPER is in order and would even work from such a small gun, Hornady makes an excellent hollow point, and glasers are also available!

[BillinPittsburgh]

Thanks for all the replies.

The "retarded blowback" nature of the Seecamp could be just the thing that reduces the recoil to the point where it is manageable.  Can anyone comment on the recoil of the Seecamp v. NAA v. Beretta v. Kel-Tec in .32?

Another factor is the grip:  a 2-finger grip helps tremendously as compared to a 1-finger grip.

The Walther TPH is a good suggestion if I can find one.  I really liked the design when it was made but have never actually had the chance to fire one.

Letting her try a lightweight .38 was one of the worst mistakes I made with her.  I didn't realize that, even with standard pressure ammo, the recoil would actually be worse than a .45!  It probably contributed to a flinch that it took a long time and much work to get rid of.

I am not surprised one bit to see different opinions on .22 v. .25.  Please keep them coming.

[PursuitSS]

One thought.........see if you can find a woman firearms instructor in your area. I know that my wife didn't respond well to MY training, she did MUCH better when she went through the Law Enforcement Academy. I've carried "mouse guns" myself, I'm just not a fan of them.

You might be shocked how much recoil she can learn to tolerate.

My .02
PursuitSS

[BillinPittsburgh]

One thought.........see if you can find a woman firearms instructor in your area. I know that my wife didn't respond well to MY training, she did MUCH better when she went through the Law Enforcement Academy. I've carried "mouse guns" myself, I'm just not a fan of them.

You might be shocked how much recoil she can learn to tolerate.

My .02
PursuitSS

Hi PursuitSS,

My wife continues to tell me that she prefers my instruction, but then continually resists when I ask her to do something while doing the same thing without objection when another instructor asks her to do it.  She has taken a 5 hour basic concealed carry class, and has a few more hours of training with other instructors besides me.  Other instructors who have taught me have had similar experiences with their wives.  I wonder if self-defense is something that a husband simply has to rely on someone else to teach his wife?

Totally agree with you about mouseguns.  They are only to back up bigger guns or for when the bigger gun would be left home.

My impressions of her recoil tolerance are the result of having her try out almost every 9mm pistol in existence, along with a few .45's, a few .38 revolvers, and some .380 and .32 autos.  She is normal and healthy and will get there, but it is best done slowly.  She shoots well with her full-size 9mm, and prefers full-size 9mm's to all other pistols.  She is the gentlest, most caring person I know, but anyone who attacks her while she is armed is in for a NASTY surprise.  Going smaller creates difficulty.

In many respects I am very lucky.  Our second date was my teaching her how to shoot a pistol.  When she found out that I am a martial artist, she asked me to train her in empty hand techniques, and trained with me for about 3 years.  She fully understands the need for guns to ensure safety, and can clearly explain it to the worst skeptic.  While some husbands have to hide new gun purchases, the Rohrbaugh that I will get later this week is a combined anniversary/birthday/Christmas gift from her.

[Salute]

As I said earlier, I like the Seecamp.

I have tried the Keltec numerous times. Friends had probs with them so they would sell them and get another till they got a good one.
I have tried the NAA, but not the Beretta.

Being that the Seecamp is heavier than those 2 I have used and the fact that its a retarted blowback I found it to be smoother to shoot than the other 32s. Not much recoil punch at all. Bigger than a 22 or 25. Now the Seecamp 380, thats a different story.  These models are so not for continuous shooting.

[Aglifter]

Another benefit of the Tomcat is they come in 22 also -- might not be a bad idea to use the 22 for training, and the 32 for carry -- my Dad and I both enjoy shooting his Tomcat, we tend to go and plink with it from time to time -- really not bad at all to run a box through.  The pup usually gets about half a box through it, before I decided it still works just fine, and leave it alone, and the Kel-Tec gets shot on very rare occasions -- the recoil's not that bad, it's just not an interesting gun to shoot.

Now that I have to be in an urban area most of the time, and in SC about 1.5 hrs from a range, I'm amazed at how quickly my shooting deteriorates, and have become a big believer in 22s, at least for some warm-up shooting before switching to 45/9mm/etc.

[BillinPittsburgh]

It looks like the consensus is that, if at all possible, I should skip the .22 and .25 and look to a .32.  If I can find a .32 that my wife will like, I totally agree.  It is still a mousegun caliber but it hits about twice as hard as either the .22 or .25.  After my wife's experience with my Kel-Tec, I am skeptical about whether this will happen.

Both the Seecamp and Beretta look like interesting possibilities.  The Seecamp would definitely be easier to hide, but I am concerned about the 1-finger grip.  The 2-finger grip of the Beretta may be easier for her to use.  The Beretta will definitely be the easier gun to get her an opportunity to shoot without actually buying one first.

If neither of these works out, then I am back to looking at .22 or .25 pistols, with the Taurus being the top pick so far, but the Walther TPH being a good contender if I can find one.

Whatever mousegun we end up selecting for her is ultimately going to be part of a group of guns, including her full size XD9 and hopefully a subcompact 9mm representing the smallest, lightest thing we can get and still have reasonable stopping power.  Hopefully we can thereby minimize the amount of time she needs the mousegun as a primary, but we all know that there are times when it is the only thing that will hide.  I'd rather she have what she can hit consistently with first, with maximizing the caliber coming in second on the priority list.