Lower hammer on live round - M1911

[R9SCarry]

Mike - I won't get in to this in any depth - but I happen to carry a SIG 226 as EDC primary - and tho well used to 1911 platform, including BHP - have chosen to go the DA/SA route - just suits me.

I do know plenty of folks with 1911's who go C&L and they are happy with it.  This mode with sufficient experience is potentially scary fast and accurate.

I do think tho that absolute newbs to handguns - in particular those who seek to carry one - need a very healthy amount of familiarization to be safe and good with them (1911's).

I am never too concerned about folk's carry choices - providing they are very familiar with the manual of arms of their chosen weapon, and can obey easily all the safety rules.  The choice finally is, as the saying goes - ''what works for the individual''

[riffraff]

Chris,

I truly agree with everything you posted.  I am just trying to get across the fact that most of the CCP holders are not the "Gun Nuts" to the extent that we are.  And I mean gun nuts in a good way.  Most people are not willing or able to put in the time and repetetive exercises and range time required to be competent with a SA as their cary gun or even the gun they have in their nightstand.  Unless these people pretty much eat, breath, talk guns etc., etc.,  when they draw that single action  or they pull that single action out of the nightstand drawer they are probably going to forget that it either has the hammer down or it is cocked and locked and THEN if they  realy need to use it they will pull on the trigger and NOTHING will happen.

Mike

[FireBreather01]

But the bottom line is this:  People who are only marginally familiar with firearms and have not had years of either "cock the hammer" or "release the safety" as soon as you draw will IN FACT either  forget to cock the hammer or forget to release the safety when they are in a split second life or death situation.

Sorry, this just shows your ignorance of the 1911, it should be carried in condition 1 - cocked and locked. Hammer down is a significant disadvantage in a self-defense scenario - I think this statement shows how 'scary looking' C&L is to you!

You might be an expert but the vast majority of people getting a CCP these days are not in your league.  You experts can carry any SA you want to but for the vast majority of people an SA is NOT A REASONABLE OPTION.

You've stated that "no one" should carry a 1911, and now you're acknowledging that those with experience will be fine.

I believe that I have posted more relavent facts concerning SA, DAO, DA/SA/ Decocker for the average CCP holder than some of the correct (but not relavant) info. that has been posted about the SA as it pertains to the average CCP holder.

The 1911 even with modifications is hopelessly outdated/outclassed as a conceiled carry gun in this day and age.

Mike, you haven't provided a single fact throughout this thread, you're stating opinions, which is fine, but they aren't facts. For your assertion that a newbie carrying a 1911 will forget the safety in a self-defense situation can only be proved by real-world events, I don't think we'll find too many. Your statement can never be proven, so it's not a fact.

What is a fact is that the 1911 has been used in more self-defense situations than any other semi-auto, the 1911 has likely won more pistol championships than any other, and the 1911 is actually a much easier gun to learn to shoot well than a DA, SA/DA, striker, etc. It has a short consistent trigger pull, excellent grip angle, and is a model of consistency.

The 1911 design is old, but it's also well-proven, and just because it scares you or you're not confident with it doesn't mean it sucks or shouldn't be used as a CCW piece. If one practices and trains they'll be fine with whatever platform they choose. If someone wants to carry with a minimum of training, then maybe a nice, safe, DA only pistol, or a revolver, is the way to go. Otherwise, it's entirely up to the individual. Your 'facts' aside, the 1911 is the most proven firearm on the planet - period

If you're ever in WI - let's get to the range, I have about a dozen 1911's I'd love to show you, in 9mm, 10mm, 38 Super, and the venerable .45 - I guarantee we'll have fun

[riffraff]

FireBreather01,

You too have fallen to the untrue.  I am not afraid of cocked and locked or cocked and unlocked for that matter.  I am just not foolhardy enough t carry in either condition when there are many new, modern handguns that mean I don't have to bother with either of these conditions.  Yes, the 1911 has proven itself over the years BECAUSE for years there was no other large bore handgun to compete with it.  This is 2006.  Things have changed in the last 25 years.  This isn't the 1920's people.

You are one of those who just love to "quote" snippets from ppsts and then  of course take that one snippet apart.  I do not like posters like you.  You  have posted nothing to dispute the facts which I have typed in several posts prior to your one post.  I seriously doubt that you have carefully read the whole thread.

Well I will just come out and say it(again, but a little more plainly)and be done with it.  COMPARED TO MODERN HANDGUNS, THE 1911 IS A DINOSAUR THAT IS ONLY SUITABLE FOR RANGE AND COMPETETION USE.

Have I made myself clear?  Reread all my posts on this subject and don't try to pick  out a sentence and tear it apart.  Read all my posts and get the whole picture of what I haved been trying to say and base your replys on that.


Chris,  I really am not upset and have no desire to stir things up but I will not have the facts "CBS'ed" on this topic.

Of course I know this is hopeless as people will cycle thru every few days/weeks and they will all praise the 1911 as God's divine inspiration to John Moses Browning that John was probably commanded to give to the masses(kind of like Moses and the Ten Commandments).

In short, I will not view this thread any further.  Post what You will, I don't care. I have tried to inform as best I could but I understand that anyone on this forum is probably pretty much set in their ways as far as the 1911 is concerned.

Mike

[theirishguard]

OK guys,, cool off. There are those who like and can handle the 1911 type pistol and feel very comfortable carrying one. Usually they are experienced shooters and spend the time necesary to carry this fine pistol. For those folks who don't want to take the time or that feel that there are better choices, carry a wheel gun or a good DA pistol. What is important is that you can shoot what you carry well.
Tom

[FireBreather01]

Tom, I'm certainly not upset and I haven't made any personally denigrating remarks - just a good old-fashioned campfire debate here, as far as I'm concerned.

The only fact that Mike keeps relying upon is that a DA doesn't need to have a safety and his one fact thus makes 1911's somehow obsolete. He keeps stating he has facts but in reality his facts are all just opinions - he thinks the 1911 is a relic compared to modern designs and because HE doesn't like it, therefore no one should - unless they're a "gun nut" and practice a lot. Well, I think we all agree about practicing.

Further, it is an OPINION or a THEORY that an inexperienced shooter will forget to wipe off a 1911 safety in a self-defense situation, not a fact. Hell, I've taught newbies that couldn't figure out how to get a revolver to work so stating that someone who's inexperienced is going to have problems is relatively self-fulfilling, isn't it?

And I'm sorry that Mike feels I've unfairly picked apart his statements. I don't think I was selective at all, his main arguments appear to be that the 1911 platform is outdated because there are other newer designs, that C&L is impossible for a newbie to manage, and that virtually every other pistol design is safer. Again, these are statements of opinion and are not facts. And at least on one occasion he flip-flopped, by first stating that no civilian is capable of carrying a 1911, then acknowledging that experience counts. I'll respond to any statement he wants to throw out here. I''m not going to change his mind, he won't change mine but a lively discussion keeps things interesting, doesn't it? And we can keep it respectful while we disagree.

Finally, isn't this fun?

[BillinPittsburgh]

If the issue is inexperienced shooters, then lets look at my own 1911 experience at a time when my training was minimal.

The first time I drew my then-new 1911 from a holster, I didn't wipe off the safety until I had the gun out and lined up with the target.  My total time was about twice what I usually accomplished.

The second time, I did wipe off the safety, but the draw took longer than I usually do.  This is the last time wiping off the safety has ever been a problem.

By my 4th draw, my time was equal to that I could achieve with the Glock I had drawn thousands of times previously.  From then on, I was always a couple tenths of a second faster with the 1911 then with anything else.

So there it is:  4 practice draws to learn to disengage the safety, without the benefit of an instructor present.

I have also read about a study performed by a police department wherein, starting with a .38 revolver and a cocked and locked 1911, they had shooters of all experience levels - from complete novices to competitors - pick up the gun and attempt to shoot the target 10 yards away.  The average time for the revolver was 2 seconds verses 17 seconds for the 1911.  A 15 second difference is huge if the gun in question is yours in the hands of an attacker who has just grabbed it, providing plenty of time to either retrieve it or draw a backup gun.

If, on the other hand, my wife is forced to use my gun to defend herself, I am more confident that she can quickly and efficiently work the safety of a 1911 than that she can struggle through a heavy DA trigger pull.

Of course, one could carry a DA/SA gun with the safety on safe, and gain the same advantage.  However, more likely than not, that safety is not designed to be disengaged with the natural downward movement the 1911 offers.

The design may be mechanically archaic in that it has twice as many parts as a Glock, but it has been proven under the worst conditions, and the human engineering of the 1911 is equal or superior to anything available today.  Shooting one is clear proof that more modern doesn't always equate better.

[Richard S]

And with all good humor, here is a photograph of this "old fossil's" two favorite "dinosaurs"   :

The Mustang was replaced as my backup by the NAA Guardian .380 in 2001, which in turn was replaced in the backup role by the R9 in 2004.  Even so, I occasionally take the Mustang out of the safe and carry it just for old times' sake.  It remains the most accurate small pistol I have ever owned -- Walther PPK included..

[BillinPittsburgh]

Hi Richard,

The Mustang and Gov't .380 are two guns I would love to see Colt bring back.  In addition to being a good backup gun as you demonstrated, I have long thought that their low recoil, ease of shooting, and thinness makes them ideal concealed carry guns for the ladies.  The one lady I know who owns one agrees.  Of course these same characteristics make it ideal for us as well.

[Richard S]

Bill:

I also regret the discontinuance of the Colt Mustang and Government .380.  I suppose Colt's decision was based in part on the financial turmoil it experienced as a result of the Beretta 9mm's coming into vogue during the "NATO standardization era."  (Apparently, the "gurus" who decreed that change somehow failed to foresee the effects which desert sand can have on a Beretta.)

As you know, the Mustang is simply a smaller, lighter, and somewhat simplified version of the Government Model .380, having the same 1911-style firing mechanism.  The Mustang design eliminated the barrel bushing and spring plug.  Mine came with a flexible synthetic full-length recoil spring guide rod and a plastic trigger.  Since I am one of those traditionalist types who do not like to have any plastic parts in my handguns, I replaced them with a stainless steel guide rod and an aircraft aluminum trigger from Scott, McDougall and Associates (SM&A).  (Sadly, SM&A closed shop in 2002 due to the serious illness of Doug McDougall, who tragically died at the untimely age of 40 in 2004.)

Like its big brother in the photograph above, the Mustang pictured is a stainless steel model and sports Sambar Stag grips from Ajax Custom Grips. Since it does not have a grip safety, I choose not to carry it C&L. However, I long ago developed the instinctive practice of disengaging the Mustang's safety and racking its slide during the process of drawing the weapon.  The entire process can be accomplished in the time it takes to place the weapon on target.  

The only "quirk" which I experienced with the Mustang during my familiarization period was that the safety lever could be pushed up into the safe position by the right thumb during the recoil phase.  The easy solution to that is simply to develop the practice of placing the thumb on top of of the lever when firing.

As mentioned, I choose not to carry the Mustang C&L due to its lack of a grip safety.  As a result, unlike the situation with a C&L 1911 (with which you need only to disengage the safety during the draw), my process of racking the slide while presenting the Mustang requires two hands.  For that reason, I switched to the DAO design for backup when such pistols of comparable quality, smaller size, and equal or larger caliber became available -- i.e., the Guardian .380 in 2001 and the R9 in 2004.  However, the Mustang's big brother, the 1911 pictured above, remains my primary weapon.  I expect it to remain so until I finally fold my cards, cash in my chips, and take my leave of this grand casino known as life.    

[dfsutton]

Well, I must say that I fall into the category of those that love both the Glock and the 1911. My first love was a Kimber Ultra CDP II. I purchased it to be my primary carry piece and bought a Versa Max II to carry it in



However, more recently my brother-in-law started trying to convince me of the merits of carrying a Glock. He told me of how they are 100% reliable whether they're dirty, wet, dunked in salt water, or just chipped out of a block of ice. He told me about the lifespan of the gun which should be well over 100,000 rounds. He told me about a ton of other things.

Well, I never wanted a Glock and I never liked the people that swore by Glock. It seemed to me that a large portion of inexperienced shooters swear by them just because of the name association. I was convinced that i disliked Glocks even though I had never touched one.

So, I did what any self respecting man does. I put my money where my mouth is and I went to my local gun range and I shot over 200 rounds with they're rental Glock 30 (45 ACP). I loved it. This gun had been on the rental rack for several years and they had never cleaned it. Not a problem. No malfunctions of any kind. Kept popping the paper where I was putting it. It was great and I knew I was gonna have to get one, so yesterday I just won an auction at Gunbroker for a Glock 30 with Night sights. I already know it's gonna be my new carry piece. I mean no disrespect to the Kimber, but the Glock is not much larger, has an additional 3 rounds of .45 ACP per magazine and has the benefit of the 6 lb DAO trigger. The reason I say benefit is because of the legal liability of a 3.5 lb SA trigger. Any of you who read Massad Ayoob should know what I'm talking about.

[theirishguard]

I still would carry the Kimber and not the Glock. How many AD's do the Glocks have compared to the total number of Glocks out there.
Tom

[FireBreather01]

I still would carry the Kimber and not the Glock. How many AD's do the Glocks have compared to the total number of Glocks out there.

That's an interesting statement and highlights the dissonance that C&L creates. It LOOKS, to the uninitiated, as if it's very unsafe - like if you touch it it will somehow magically fire. But the 1911 is simply one of the safest designs available and an AD with a 1911 is really a very difficult task to accomplish.

[dfsutton]

How many AD's do the Glocks have compared to the total number of Glocks out there.
Tom

The answer would be zero if we were all intelligent, properly trained gun owners and followed all the proper safety rules. I personally do not believe there is a such thing as an accidental discharges. They are all negligent in my book. Anytime a weapon goes off when it is not supposed to, that reflects none upon the gun and everything upon the idiot carrying it.

Safeties are mechanical and all mechanical devices fail. The only true safety is the person carrying the gun.

But that's not even the real issue here. The issue in my book is the civil liability when a shooting occurs. Any trigger that is 4lbs or lighter (and especially those that are 4lb SA) could be labeled as a "Hair Trigger" by the prosecution. By having a "hair trigger" on your carry gun you open yourself up to them being able to portray what is truely a self defense shooting, which would be justifiable homicide and a not guilty verdict, as a "horrible, yet unintentional accident" that would not be murder, but very likely manslaughter.

Massad Ayoob gives tons of examples of this in his writings. I think its a very valid point and something that any 1911 owner should look at. That 3.5lb trigger pull is excellent for 1" groups, but what might it cost you in the court room?

[theirishguard]

OK,Dave, I agree, however many police officers have had AD's with Glocks. As I remember even an instructor talking with a class of officers had an AD in front of them while carrying a Glock. There was a film strip on this and may have been shown on this forum. Maybe someone can find this.
Tom