Lower hammer on live round - M1911

[flyandscuba]

There is a "modern" .45 that requires essentially a cocked & locked carry mode.  The new Taurus 24/7 in SA/DA mode.  When you rack the slide and a round is chambered, the trigger is in SA mode.  The only way to get it to DA is to pull the trigger on a dead cartridge.  As soon as you eject the bad cartridge, you are back in SA mode.  Therefore, if you carry this gun, you should engage the external safety.  Of course if you take up the slack on the trigger and then engage the safety lever -- there is no safety at all -- and the gun will fire, shearing off the safety lever as the slide tries to move rearward....

Yep, it is a bad design -- that they have chosen to "update" all the MillPros with...

[tracker]

Mike,
I like both the 1911 and the BHP but clearly am much more
partial to the BHP; although, I probably wouldn't carry either.
They are both excellent weapons, though.

[FireBreather01]

He has developed his "plan" to load the chamber and then lower the hammer in order to feel safe

Well, that's not the way John Browning intended it to be used, did he? I'm sorry, but that wasn't an AD, it was a ND and it wasn't due to the gun - it was due to Paco's carelessness. First, there are a couple of methods to safely lower a hammer, even on a live round - but you have to be comfortable and CONFIDENT with the gun, and always, always, always have a safe backstop. Second, this will only come with regular practice - if you're not willing to put the time in, especially with a 1911, then it's probably not the gun for you - get a revolver. But then again, if you choose to carry you should practice with whatever platform you're carrying. Third, if you check with almost any LEO agency that carries Glocks - guess what? Yep, a lot of AD's. I have no stats for this but I'm willing to bet that in the last decade there have been more AD's with Glocks than 1911's, especially when you consider their sheer prevalence.

An AD/ND can happen with any firearm and is almost always due to not following the rules of gun safety. I have a lot of 1911's and they're my preferred CCW (although my R9 sees the most frequent carry!). I've put thousands and thousands down range with them during training or practice, and carry one or the other whenever I can. Knock on wood - no unintentional discharges yet.

This is 2006, no one should even consider carrying a SA as a defense gun. I don't want to upset all you die hard 1911 owners out there but they have no place in conceiled carry in this day and age.

I don't understand why you're saying that. Is it liability you're concerned about? Or just the ability of the shooter to 'remember' the safety? The 1911 is a proven self-defense platform. Having a safety on has prevented more than one good guy from getting killed by his own firearm after being disarmed due to the BG not knowing to disengage the safety. They're safe, accurate, reliable, easy to carry and just plain awesome! The 1911's are thinner and more discreet than Glock, HK, Ruger, XD, etc. If you think they're too heavy, try one with an alloy frame. I have almost every pistol platform there is - SA, SA/DA, DA only, striker, etc. I still prefer a 1911. I even carry my CZ's S/A!

Okay, okay - just my opinion, I'm not trying to start another famous 1911 vs whatever thread - use what you choose, and choose to use it - regularly!!!

[Aglifter]

I think some of the comments may have been some "pot stirring."  1911 has one heck of a history to be disagreed with as a CCW piece.  


If you weren't holding the grip safety, would it stop the pistol from firing if the hammer did slip?

[Richard S]

Richard,

Very nice, but you still have to remember to hit the safety when you draw, is this correct?  In a split second life or death situation, the person who is not very skilled in firearms handling will forget to do anything except draw and fire.
Again my opinions only here but it doesn't matter how many improvements are made to as standard size 1911 they are just to dam big and heavy to carry conceiled, at least with the type of clothing that I normally wear most of the year.

I must admit to some bias here.  I never liked the 1911 and never will.  It is just to old school.  I don't like the way they fit my hand and I can't hit anything with one.  Now the Browning Hi-Power,  that is the finest single action ever made and in my and many other's opinion is the improvement/perfection over the 1911.

My opinions only,  Mike

Mike:

No offense taken.  At the risk of appearing to be "politically incorrect," my experience has been that handguns are a lot like women -- what is beautiful in the eyes of one man may not be so in the eyes of another.    I'm just one of those die-hard 1911 devotees and have been since being issued my first "Slabsides" 43 years ago.

I agree that the Browing High Power is a masterpiece of design.  Now the good news . . . Cylinder & Slide offers the SFS System for the High Power as well, in both blue and hard chrome.

http://www.cylinder-slide.com/sfs.shtml   (Scroll down the page.)

And speaking of the many designs by John Browning, while most of them are simply brilliant, there is one which is curious to me -- the FN Browning 1922:

http://www.cruffler.com/historic-may01.html

This is a striker-fired weapon which is an absolute "monkey puzzle" to field strip and reassemble.  Its predecessor, the 1910 model, was used in the incident which sparked the outbreak of World War I.  

http://www.gunsworld.com/world/browng1910_us.html

I own one of the 1922 models chambered for .32 ACP (7.65 mm), the markings of which indicate that it was issued to the German Luftwaffe in World War II.  Needless to say, it is now a true "Safe Queen."

[theirishguard]

I'm another lover of the 1911 platform for carry. In my opinion it is the best defense pistol made in .45acp. One needs to practice and think.
Tom

[Michigunner]

I appreciate the thin width of the 1911.  That is a real blessing for those with small hands.

Not so with my Beretta 92FS Inox.  I had to tip it sideways to reach the trigger.

Well, I'm going to practice "Don't touch the M1911 hammer", when removing a live round from the chamber.

I noticed somewhere that a shooter placed his thumb on the hammer, when inserting the "cocked and locked" weapon into his holster.  I'll have to think more about that.  Somehow, it seems unnecessary.

Bill



  

[FireBreather01]

If you weren't holding the grip safety, would it stop the pistol from firing if the hammer did slip?

You have to depress the grip safety in order to get the hammer to drop. You then carefully let up on the trigger and lower the hammer to its half-cock notch, which ensures you're not resting the hammer on the FP. You depress the trigger just enough to release the hammer, then let up. Keeping the trigger depressed the enire time will drop it to the FP.

You can lower the hammer with your thumb and forefinger, keeping the thumb between the hammer and FP, or just use your thumb to lower the hammer. Either way, concentrate and do it very deliberately and slowly, and lower to the half-cock notch, keeping your finger off of the trigger after you've initially dropped the hammer.

[riffraff]

I feel the need to state some facts here.  All the above precations/actions are not required with either a DAO, most of their triggers are very bad EXCEPT  for the R9, or a DA/SA with a decocker lever.  The 1911 even with modifications is hopelessly outdated/outclassed as a conceiled carry gun in this day and age.  I do not want to p*** anyone off.  These are just the facts.  For those who still think the 1911 is a decent carry gun please stop kidding yourself.   Just because you have grown up/grown old with the gun should not mean you can not see the advantages of better technology when it comes along.  All 1911's should be relegated to range use only.  They are not a gun you should be carrying or should have in your vehicle or in your night stand for use as a self defense gun.  These are my opinions  but I also believe they are reasonable facts.  I will stand by them.  Carry a 1911 if you want but understand you are doing so based on illogical/outmoded/old fashioned thinking.

Mike

[Richard S]

But I and countless others, including the U. S. Marines and the FBI SWAT Team, would respectfully disagree.  

For example:  

http://www.sightm1911.com/

[riffraff]

They are not civilians.  Civilians do not have the training of those orginizations.  The mission and objectives of those orginizations are not even close to the Joe citizen with a conceiled carry permit.   For a citizen, even one quite familiar with firearms, a DA gun, ANY DA gun is not a reasonable conceiled carry option or one that should be in the vehicle or in or on the nightstand.

You haven't swayed me yet and you can't  because you don't have the revelant facts to back it up but you will probably still try.

Mike

[BillinPittsburgh]

They are not civilians.  Civilians do not have the training of those orginizations.  The mission and objectives of those orginizations are not even close to the Joe citizen with a conceiled carry permit.   For a citizen, even one quite familiar with firearms, a DA gun, ANY DA gun is not a reasonable conceiled carry option or one that should be in the vehicle or in or on the nightstand.

You haven't swayed me yet and you can't  because you don't have the revelant facts to back it up but you will probably still try.

Mike

You make incorrect ASSumptions about what training people do and don't have.

I used to think the same way you do about 1911's until I actually tried one.  I can draw this gun from a holster and put a faster, more accurate hit on target than with ANY other gun.

Wiping off the safety is the simplest part of the draw, and adds absolutely zero time to the draw.  My thumb often makes the same motion when drawing my Glocks.  Anyone who is worried about flubbing this part of the draw probably needs a lot more practice drawing whatever it is they carry, because other parts of the draw are much easier to flub.

The SA system is as safe as anything designed to discharge projectiles is ever going to be.  The thumb safety blocks the sear.  The grip safety blocks the trigger.  Even if the thumb safety is wiped off in the holster (Matt Del Fatti made me a holster which makes this impossible), both the grip safety and trigger must be depressed simultaneously for the gun to fire.  If the hammer were to slip off the full cock notch, the half-cock notch will catch it.  If the gun is dropped, the firing pin spring will hold the firing pin back.  If it really makes you nervous, then replace the firing pin with a titanium one and the firing pin spring with an extra power one (as I did), or get a 1911 with a firing pin block.  

Carrying a Glock (which I do often) or Springfield XD is much like carrying a Colt Series 80 1911 cocked and unlocked.  Find that surprising?  Compare the firing mechanisms of each, as well as the trigger pull resistance of each, and then tell me why I am wrong.

DA/SA systems require transitioning from one trigger pull to another between shots.  I have shot most of the guns presently available that use this system, and none of them has as nice a trigger as a 1911 in single action mode, or as nice a trigger as a DA revolver in DA mode.  Furthermore, about 40% of the women I have taken shooting had trouble with DA triggers with as little as 9 lb. of resistance.  This is why every gun I presently rely on for defense is a single trigger system with a light trigger pull, whether SA, DAO with a partially preset hammer or striker, or DAO with a trigger job.

Go to any IDPA match, and you will see that the 1911 is the 2nd most popular gun there (Glocks are first), and that there are more 1911's than everything else, excluding Glocks, combined.

I don't use 1911's because I "grew up" with anything.  I use them because putting many, many thousands of rounds downrange during practice, training, and competition have taught me that they work better than most other things available.

[riffraff]

BillinPittsburg,

Well, if you want to take it a step lower we can do so,  you have made incorrect ASSumptions.

Many points of your posts are right on!   But the bottom line is this:  People who are only marginally familiar with firearms and have not had years of either "cock the hammer" or "release the safety" as soon as you draw will IN FACT either  forget to cock the hammer or forget to release the safety when they are in a split second life or death situation.
You might be an expert but the vast majority of people getting a CCP these days are not in your league.  You experts can carry any SA you want to but for the vast majority of people an SA is NOT A REASONABLE OPTION.
I have stated my opinions and really have no desire to continue but if you SA diehards want to continue, we can do so.

Mike

[R9SCarry]

Guys - I detect some rise in temperature here!!

Let's perhaps just agree to disagree - don't let it ramp up further.  Opinions are - just that - opinions.

[riffraff]

R9SCarry,

I am not upset myself.  Just as you have stated, opinions are opinions but also sometimes facts are facts.  I believe that I have posted more relavent facts concerning SA, DAO, DA/SA/ Decocker for the average CCP holder than some of the correct (but not relavant) info. that has been posted about the SA as it pertains to the average CCP holder.

Mike