Skyy CPX-1

[Rocnerd]

Quite interesting.  

I bet the President wishes he knew about that whole incident sooner.

[RJ HEDLEY]

  Not only Copying,  but Bad Mouthing what they are Copying. I wonder if  they are not EX- employees of Kel-Tec ??  Seem to know a lot about Manufacturing Procedure.

[Michigunner]

Very interesting.  The VP sure got caught.

I'll be looking forward to hearing user reports about this "new" pistol.

[Fud]

http://www.ktog.org/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=2505;action=display;num=1132099080;start=30

Well, that certainly was an interesting read. Reminds me of something that happened to me a few years ago ...

I was a technical manager for a major telecommunications company and we signed an exclusive contract with a major computer company. I'm not mentioning any names because I can't prove and I don't want to be sued for liable.

But anyway, part of the terms of the contract was that if we could reproduce a problem on demand in an independent environment (which is rather hard to do), the computer company would provide a fix within five business days or suffer a financial penality (we would get X number of freebies and X was in the hundreds).

We day my team found and isolated a problem. We turned it over to the company requesting the fix within five business days as per the terms of the contract.

On the fifth day we received a magnetic tape with the fix on it. We installed it and discovered that the tape was blank.

THEM: "Gee, it worked fine in our lab. It must have got erased by a magnetic field during shipping. Unfortunately we didn't keep a copy of the fix so we have to treat this as a new problem and we'll get it to you in five days as stated in the contract."

Hmmm sounded sort of fishy to me. A few months later we isolated another problem and guess what? The tape with the fix on it also got erased by a magnetic field.  

Yeah right. It was just their underhanded way of not delivering on what they agreed to.

For some reason, reading that thread over there reminded me of this story. From that point forward, I never trusted that computer company again and after reading that thread, I'm not so sure if I trust that company either.

Of course, that doesn't mean that they have a bad product but it does raise reasons for concern and gives me something to think before making a purchase.

[DDGator]

George Kelgren has apparently stated that he is not aware of anyone in management over there being an ex-Kel-Tec employee.  He acknowledges though that they could employ some low level type CNC machinists that used to work for KT since the geography is close.

I shouldn't say anything else that could be viewed as "supporting" Skyy because I am being lambasted on other forums for "sticking up" for them.  

For the record -- I am just trying to be open minded and get the facts out.  I have no opinion one way or the other about the company or the product (having not seen one or touched one), other than the fact that the first forray at internet marketing (whether planned by the company or the individual) was an ill-advised scheme that will haunt them for a while.

Interesting too to note that Kelgren himself is not crying foul or claiming any infrigement or theft of trade secrets.

[flyandscuba]

I shouldn't say anything else that could be viewed as "supporting" Skyy because I am being lambasted on other forums for "sticking up" for them.  

It's ok, cause I'm sure I'm percieved as "having it out" for Skyy.  I have enjoyed meeting and doing business with Marty, Valerie, and some of the other great people at Kel Tec -- so, I am somewhat protective of their efforts.  The P-32 and P-3AT were a big catalyst in the modern day interest in the pocket pistol.  Reading of Skyy's plans to "introduce" a .380 makes me expect what gun it will resemble.

I felt the same way about the KT "clones" from Cobra and Standard Arms made an entry -- but they never developed a following.



Standard Arms

Granted, the Skyy appears -- at least cosmetically -- better than the other copies, but I wonder what the feelings of forum members would be if someone took an R9 and a set of calipers and started cranking out "new and improved" copies of the Rohrbaugh?

[DDGator]

I hear ya, Fly.  But -- being out to get the new guy is usually the more popular point of view.

How would I feel if someone copied the R-9?  Well, first I am not sure if the R-Bros have any patents or legally protectable interest in the current R-9 technology.  That would obviously make a difference.  Illegal is illegal.

Absent that -- if someone else made an R-9 copy that was as good -- with as good a quality materials -- for a lot less money -- I would probably own one.  

I would expect some R-9 owners to be put out.  Natural reaction.  On the other hand, I wouldn't chastize Kel-Tec owners for not sharing in their rage.  We all have our favorite products and that colors our perceptions -- but that doesn't mean everyone who doesn't see things that way is an "idiot."

[StogieC]

I've posted a stack of pictures of a CPX-1 and P-11 side-by-side and stacked at: http://www.skyyforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=109#109

[Fud]

I don't see any photos.

[RJ HEDLEY]

I don't want to engage anyone on this, but just put forth a thought.   In copying anything, the copier has a free head start.  .  The originator of the item being copied has spent many hours developing the entire concept, and because it is not illegal, it's OK to take it.  [?]  
This Skyy thing is FOUL, there is more than just a slight resemblance here.
  
Think it's great?  That's OK, But I don't see it that way.  

Just my opinion.

[DDGator]

Sounds like what people used to say about Taurus.  They bought old S&W equipment and started cranking up S&W clones.  Then Beretta clones. Then KT clones?    Now apparently 1911 clones.  

Over time they started actually thinking for themselves, improving quality and innovating.  Now they are a pretty respected operation.  I still prefer the S&W stuff, but Taurus is not bad and is a good value for the money.

Hell, there is a whole industry based on cloning JMB's 1911 design.  And how many clones are there of the CZ-75 type guns.  What is a Rossi?  Aren't Bersa guns just cheap foreign copies of other guns?

I hear the whole "copy" thing -- but its nothing new under the sun.

What about computers?  IBM PCs couldn't compete with "clones" after a while.  Should be boycott Dell?  Or should we congratulate Steve Jobs for figuring out a way to keep the Apple propriety stuff for himself?

To me, the real evil in cloning is when you try to trick the consumer into buying a product thinking it is somehting else -- designer watches, purses, knives perhaps -- but that is clearly illegal.

Darn... I told myself I was going to shut up on this issue.  

[Michigunner]

I also am for cloning.  Absolutely.  The more choices, the better.

Like Duane, I just do not want to be tricked into believing the object is an original.

It's something of a surprise that the Kel-Tec products are being cloned.

What we really need is a Glock 9mm clone reduced to the same size as our R9S.

[StogieC]

I don't see any photos.

more at http://www.skyyforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=109#109

[flyandscuba]

So, what's your point?  The P-11, P-10, and P-12 were all designed by George Kelgren....first when he ran Grendel firearms and then when he started Kel-tec.

The P-10 was the first, using an internal 10-round magazine, loaded from the top with the slide in the locked back position.  He improved the design at customer's request by making the addition of a removable 12-round magazine in the P-12. Both the P-10 and P-12 used the low mass hammer - powered by a coiled hammer spring.  If an owner ever made the mistake of releasing the tension of the spring during an ill-advised detail strip, they'd never get it back together because it took a special tool (I know, I made that mistake).

The P-11 design used the same low mass hammer -- but this time with a spring running down the backstrap and retained with a roll pin near the magazine well.  From the disassembled photos I've seen of the Skyy -- it uses the identical arrangement.

It only confirms the position that The Skyy is a copy of George Kelgren's design efforts.

[StogieC]

So, what's your point?  The P-11, P-10, and P-12 were all designed by George Kelgren....first when he ran Grendel firearms and then when he started Kel-tec...

I'm making no point by providing these pictures.  It's simply a properly scaled lineup of them.  I offer no conclusions but provide this at the request of others.