I'm still torn - between Keltec P-11 and Rohrbaugh

[MurrayNevada]

Wilco:
What is the basis for your level of expertise?

[R9SCarry]

What Murray said!!

Is this John Davis we are speaking with??  

[wilco]

The basis is 35+ years of study of guns, shooting, reloading, casting, holstermaking, ccw, smithing, matches, efficient training, martial arts, etc. No, neither the military nor law enforcement had anything to do with it.  The top men are almost never to be found in such institutions, and if they are, they still achieved what they did on their own, not because of their job, but usually in spite of their job interfering with attaining top ability.

[MurrayNevada]

Wilco:
Thanks for the info.  By the tone of your posts I would have thought you a younger man.

[GeorgeH]

My first pocketgun was a Seecamp 25. Before than, I thought carrying a mouse gun was a waste of time.

I was wrong.

It is more important to carry than not.

More people have been killed with a 22 than with any other caliber. We tend to be hung up on caliber and speed. I would rather stress marksmanship and weapon control. A 22 in the head is far more effective than a 45 in the thigh.

Using pocket pistols, including mini 22 revolvers, I ensure that I am aways armed. I've been able to carry a Seecamp in my swim trunks while at the beach watching my 7 year old son play. You can't do that with a belt rig.

As to clip holsters: I love them. They give me flexability.

[shooterjb]

First of all George,

To be fair, I think that Ron's clip holsters work much better than most others. I have been using my Saigon Clips and Clippers for some time and have not had any problems.

To address Wilco's concerns,

I am amazed that any sane civilian would wear body armor on a regular basis. Wearing body armor in the sun on a 100 degree day for eight hours is not something that most people would willingly do unless they were mandated to do it by their employer. People who wear body armor do it under those circumstances all the time. It isn't fun even if you are using a $35 undershirt specifically made to make it less unpleasant. Body armor also invariably prints. I wonder what a civilian's supervisors, peers and subordinates think of that. The body armor discussion all makes me think of Wild Bill Hickock and Jessie James. Both of them caught it in the back of the head.

[GeorgeH]

Hi Frank:

I sweat enough as it is. If I wore body armor, everyone would know simply by using their nose.

[R9SCarry]

If I wore body armor, everyone would know simply by using their nose.

Bwhahaha!  George ... agreed!!  if I tried to wear that stuff this time of year - I'd not need a gun ... I'd disable anyone within 20 feet thru shere olfactory abuse ... knock em right over!!

[wilco]

It's not  100 degrees most of the time, ANYwhere in the US,much less most places. Many states NEVER see 100 degrees.  A decent vest is quite undetectable under a simple shirt.

Armed is a state of mind. I'm more armed with just a stiffened finger than most men are with a machete. All you are with a mini-revolver is kidding yourself.

[R9SCarry]

Is that you John?? .... you didn't answer before --- I am still waiting to know!  

[flyandscuba]

Well, since we've heard about Wilco's "years of experience", I'll chime in here with a little experience-based reality of my own -- I just can't "bite my tongue" anymore.

In my years of experience in emergency medicine, the most common firearm related deaths I encountered were caused by none other than the .22 LR -- simply because of their proliferation and availability.  Many of these were fired at very short range from firearms such as inexpensive RG revolvers, etc.

In comparison, I treated a victim who was shot 5 times in the upper body with a .45 ACP and later walked out of the hospital.  Although he was a rare case (less than 15 minutes elapsed from his transport from the scene to when he was placed on the operating table thanks to the BO 105 helicopter).  Many more factors enter into the incapacitation equation (such as mental, emotional, and physical) than can be evaluated by shooting bullets into ballistic gelatin or some other media.

So, if one doesn't think a pocket gun is of value -- my question is, why are you here?  Have you ordered an R-9?  Do you intend to do so?

I've ordered an R-9s and will most likely carry it daily once it arrives.  Presently, I carry a P-3AT daily.  Before that, it was the P-32.  And before that, it was an NAA mini in .22 WMR.  I am glad that innovative manufacturers like George Kelgren and Eric Rohrbaugh have jumped in to develop ever impressive and effective pocket guns.

The thought of a 9mm has me excited.  But I'm very comfortable carrying the .380 ACP.  However, even if I had my old .22 WMR -- I doubt that someone with a "stiffened finger" would get close enough to touch me.

One more thing.  Body armour for the "common man" is extreme in my opinion.  LEOs wear body armour -- and should, because they are subject to entering a situation of armed conflict.  I carry a concealed weapon as a defensive (not offensive) weapon.  Evading or retreating from a potential conflict is of first order.  My pocket pistol is intended to repel the BGs until I can make my escape.

I'm not one to go looking for a fight....unless it is for gun forum trolls...

[shooterjb]

Hi Wilco,

I hope that I am allowed to say this on this forum, and I sincerely, sincerely apologize if I am not, but you are full of shit. Try wearing body armor on an 80 degree day in the sun. It is just as unpleasant and is no fun either. I do it all of the time. You say that a decent vest is quite undectable under a simple shirt. I am not aware of any threat level IIA armor that won't print under a heavy uniform shirt, for instance an Elbeco or Flying Cross tropical weight shirt. Please advise me of the make and model number that has a decent protection level and is so inconspicuous. I will invest in some even though most current body armor by credible manufacturers is in the $600-$900 dollar range.

[RJ HEDLEY]

flyandscuba and Shooterjb
YOU  both NAILED IT !!

[wilco]

theyr'e both full of it, and you all know it, because most of the time, in most of the US, it's not 80 degrees, either.  I've seen many guys wearing 2nd chance, which printed LESS than the IWB, fbi type rigs that they wore. :-)

No, I'm not paying $800 for a DAO pocket gun, whose warranty is voided by the use of wussy "Plus P" loads, which have no more effectiveness than a proper load in a locked breech  380, which I can buy all day long for  $300.

[wilco]

Care to point out WHERE I ever said a pocket gun is of no value? You can't do so, so you are lying about that. After you admit that, and apologize for putting words in my mouth, I MIGHT consider you worthy of being answered.

A .22lr pocket auto can handle 90+% of civilian confrontations, because well over  80% of attackers will back down at just the SIGHT of your (ready) gun, or at shots fired that dont hit them. About half of those who don't back down, will stop at being solidly hit in the chest, with 1-2 .22's, and if you are REALLY skilled with the .22, you can also sometimes make head shots.  Even if the bullet does not reach the brain, an 80 ft lb lick to the skull will rock his world, letting you shoot at him again, and delaying his closing with you, or his ability to shoot you. In that delay-time, you can hit his head again,most likely, and repeat until a .22 slips into an eye socket, sinus cavity, temple, or base of skull, or until you can break his leg with a sidekick and then kick his head off of his shoulders.