AR-15 kits?

[kevinqjhps]

Anyone else notice the vast number of companies selling AR-15 kits? I just wonder how many of these are out on the used gun market that were put together by Bubba on his kitchen table. While the AR is not a complex weapon to build one RELIABLY it does take some tools and a bit of mechanical knowledge. Outdoorsports and Cheaper Than Dirt seem to be the biggest kit sellers.

Anyone ever built one of these or would you trust one from the used gun market? After seeing many AR's fail in Vietnam I don't trust a factory build let alone a 'Bubba build.'

[MikeInTexas]

I've only assembled a couple dozen from kits.  I have not bought a complete AR-15 rifle in over 20 years.  I can assemble from a kit, or usually hand selected parts a lot better gun than you can buy for the price.  Zero issues with reliability.  I even recommend that 1st time AR buyers buy a stripped receiver and then order the parts so I can help them assemble it, you learn a lot about Americas rifle that way, come out ahead on price and don't have a drawer of replaced parts you will never use again.

Notice how I say 'assemble' as opposed to build.  For the vast majority of folks they will assemble a parts kit on a complete lower.  A few will build from a 80% lower (I have done this as well), but it is not a 'build' as if you were putting together an AK from a flat and a surplus parts kit-------that is a build.

The skills and tools needed are easy to come buy and it is not that hard to do.  Did a half dozen or so for myself in the 6 months before the election, and helped another 5 folks assemble some of theirs during that time frame.  Just wish I could have gotten today's prices then.

Palmetto State Armory is probably the most popular source of parts for this.  Primary Arms is good, as are a number of other folks.

I have experience with Outdoorsportsusa, they send out a pretty good kit for a real value price.  If you are budget conscience they are not a bad choice for a range toy, truck gun, knock about gun, hedge against a ban or for an occasional shooter.  Another value is 22mods4all.com, you can get good price from them as well, just remember you don't get a BCG with their kits, must add it on.  Those are the only people that regularly offer a .223 Wylde chamber in their kits. (For those that don't know, the .223 Wylde is the best choice for a chamber if you intend to shoot both 5.56 NATO and .223 Rem from your rifle.)

Buyer beware in whatever used gun you buy, doesn't matter if 'bubba' did it or some other 'gunsmith', lemons are out there in every category.  No matter what you hear, it is not that hard to assemble on correctly, and the basic tool kit needed is not that hard to get.  I had to repair an AR-10 last week that was last worked on by a professional gunsmith, he did a boneheaded job on the rifle for a LEO buddy. 

If you are considering it, don't let the naysayers scare you off.  The hard part (and safety issues) are already taken care of in the design, or by the way parts are sold these days.  No need to worry about headspacing, etc. when buying quality parts.  If a part is bad or not in spec. every company I have used will swap it out for a good one.

We have a business near me that assembly of ARs is what they do.  They are a big parts house.  You as a customer bring in your stripped receiver, and they help you select parts and assemble the rifle on their workbench using their tools for free.  At the end, they tally up all the parts on an invoice.  That way every part is exactly what you want at that time.  Good news is they are now getting into AR-10s, 80% Glock clones and 80% 1911s as well.

Kevin, I respectfully disagree with you final sentence, they are good guns.  Normal folks can assemble very good guns from parts kits.  I don't buy manufactured guns not because of the lack of quality, there are some outstanding rifles being sold these days, but due to other reasons.  Colt, Daniel Defense, FN, LaRue, Noveske, Sig all make high quality rifles.  Viet Nam was decades ago, they have made lots of improvements.  Look at all the countries that are going to the stoner design these days, it's a different rifle from what you had to deal with.  The deficiencies and issues with it's initial deployment have been well documented and addressed.

Some would call my SBR a bubba gun (I prefer 'Custom Made'), I carefully selected each and every part on that gun and took extreme care and patience when assembling it to my exact need.  I have never had a failure with it, and I trust it as my go to rifle for any emergency.



Oh, one more thing, I will never buy or recommend someone buy anything from Cheaper Than Dirt after all the less than ethical things they have done over the years.  Before their shenanigans I did shop their store in Fort Worth, but never again will I darken their door.
.

[kevinqjhps]

I've only assembled a couple dozen from kits.  I have not bought a complete AR-15 rifle in over 20 years.  I can assemble from a kit, or usually hand selected parts a lot better gun than you can buy for the price.  Zero issues with reliability.  I even recommend that 1st time AR buyers buy a stripped receiver and then order the parts so I can help them assemble it, you learn a lot about Americas rifle that way, come out ahead on price and don't have a drawer of replaced parts you will never use again.

Notice how I say 'assemble' as opposed to build.  For the vast majority of folks they will assemble a parts kit on a complete lower.  A few will build from a 80% lower (I have done this as well), but it is not a 'build' as if you were putting together an AK from a flat and a surplus parts kit-------that is a build.

The skills and tools needed are easy to come buy and it is not that hard to do.  Did a half dozen or so for myself in the 6 months before the election, and helped another 5 folks assemble some of theirs during that time frame.  Just wish I could have gotten today's prices then.

Palmetto State Armory is probably the most popular source of parts for this.  Primary Arms is good, as are a number of other folks.

I have experience with Outdoorsportsusa, they send out a pretty good kit for a real value price.  If you are budget conscience they are not a bad choice for a range toy, truck gun, knock about gun, hedge against a ban or for an occasional shooter.  Another value is 22mods4all.com, you can get good price from them as well, just remember you don't get a BCG with their kits, must add it on.  Those are the only people that regularly offer a .223 Wylde chamber in their kits. (For those that don't know, the .223 Wylde is the best choice for a chamber if you intend to shoot both 5.56 NATO and .223 Rem from your rifle.)

Buyer beware in whatever used gun you buy, doesn't matter if 'bubba' did it or some other 'gunsmith', lemons are out there in every category.  No matter what you hear, it is not that hard to assemble on correctly, and the basic tool kit needed is not that hard to get.  I had to repair an AR-10 last week that was last worked on by a professional gunsmith, he did a boneheaded job on the rifle for a LEO buddy. 

If you are considering it, don't let the naysayers scare you off.  The hard part (and safety issues) are already taken care of in the design, or by the way parts are sold these days.  No need to worry about headspacing, etc. when buying quality parts.  If a part is bad or not in spec. every company I have used will swap it out for a good one.

We have a business near me that assembly of ARs is what they do.  They are a big parts house.  You as a customer bring in your stripped receiver, and they help you select parts and assemble the rifle on their workbench using their tools for free.  At the end, they tally up all the parts on an invoice.  That way every part is exactly what you want at that time.  Good news is they are now getting into AR-10s, 80% Glock clones and 80% 1911s as well.

Kevin, I respectfully disagree with you final sentence, they are good guns.  Normal folks can assemble very good guns from parts kits.  I don't buy manufactured guns not because of the lack of quality, there are some outstanding rifles being sold these days, but due to other reasons.  Colt, Daniel Defense, FN, LaRue, Noveske, Sig all make high quality rifles.  Viet Nam was decades ago, they have made lots of improvements.  Look at all the countries that are going to the stoner design these days, it's a different rifle from what you had to deal with.  The deficiencies and issues with it's initial deployment have been well documented and addressed.

Some would call my SBR a bubba gun (I prefer 'Custom Made'), I carefully selected each and every part on that gun and took extreme care and patience when assembling it to my exact need.  I have never had a failure with it, and I trust it as my go to rifle for any emergency.



Oh, one more thing, I will never buy or recommend someone buy anything from Cheaper Than Dirt after all the less than ethical things they have done over the years.  Before their shenanigans I did shop their store in Fort Worth, but never again will I darken their door.
.

Excellent post. I had forgotten about what Cheaper Than Dirt did during the 1994 AWB.

As to the AR's once bitten twice shy. I just do not trust them. I prefer my UZI Model B or a M-14.

[MikeInTexas]

You should try them again, as I said, lots of improvements in the last 50 years on them.  Plus you can get a lower for $50 and a complete parts kit for $300.  Fun project if nothing else.  Don't like it, sell it.  Only lose a few dollars and have the experience.  You can get an armorers wrench for $20 and probably have most of the other tools needed in your workshop.

Tell us more about the UZI.  Is it a full on, unadulterated Israeli made gun, or a registered bolt/receiver gun?  I really don't know a whole lot about them, but remember something about registered parts, etc.  Only fired on a few times, but enjoyed it.  Might not be my first choice for a sub gun, a fully suppressed Sterling would be #1 for me (maybe the funnest non-belt fed I have ever fired), but it's in the top three

They seem to be a good middle of the road entry into the full auto world.

[kevinqjhps]

You should try them again, as I said, lots of improvements in the last 50 years on them.  Plus you can get a lower for $50 and a complete parts kit for $300.  Fun project if nothing else.  Don't like it, sell it.  Only lose a few dollars and have the experience.  You can get an armorers wrench for $20 and probably have most of the other tools needed in your workshop.

Tell us more about the UZI.  Is it a full on, unadulterated Israeli made gun, or a registered bolt/receiver gun?  I really don't know a whole lot about them, but remember something about registered parts, etc.  Only fired on a few times, but enjoyed it.  Might not be my first choice for a sub gun, a fully suppressed Sterling would be #1 for me (maybe the funnest non-belt fed I have ever fired), but it's in the top three

They seem to be a good middle of the road entry into the full auto world.

Thinking about the 'kit thing' I think it is my feelings against the AR from the past that shy me away.

I have a Fulton Armory M-14, like I carried in Vietnam but without the selector switch on the right rear. My semi auto is VERY accurate and a .308 will put you down quickly.

My UZI is a Model B. It is a later Israeli model, 9mm of course. I only have one left. Like all the guns I like I used to have 4. Stay away from the Chinese models. They did a good job on their M-14 copies and their AK and SKS models are perfect. The Israeli models run $1800 and up but anything less than $1800 is a bargain. For some reason most UZI's, like our Rohrbaughs, also have original box and papers with it. The early models come in cardboard boxes, later models are cases like Rohrbaugh with foam cutouts for folded stcckrifle, two 25 round mags, site tool and instruction manual.   There are 25, 32, and 50 round mags. The 25 and 32 are FLAWLESS. The 50 rounders are German made and have problems, I have owned 3-4 and none were reliable . The full auto models are reliable but expensive and you need a stamp. I have three stamps, I don't want to wait 9 months for another.

[kevinqjhps]

You should try them again, as I said, lots of improvements in the last 50 years on them.  Plus you can get a lower for $50 and a complete parts kit for $300.  Fun project if nothing else.  Don't like it, sell it.  Only lose a few dollars and have the experience.  You can get an armorers wrench for $20 and probably have most of the other tools needed in your workshop.

Tell us more about the UZI.  Is it a full on, unadulterated Israeli made gun, or a registered bolt/receiver gun?  I really don't know a whole lot about them, but remember something about registered parts, etc.  Only fired on a few times, but enjoyed it.  Might not be my first choice for a sub gun, a fully suppressed Sterling would be #1 for me (maybe the funnest non-belt fed I have ever fired), but it's in the top three

They seem to be a good middle of the road entry into the full auto world.

p.s. if you are really interested in a UZI I found an old Norinco instruction manual, obviously not a real Israeli UZI , but its 12 pages and gives you a idea about it. Send me a P.M. in the next day or so and I will get it to you at no cost. Otherwise I will just put it on G-broker.

[MikeInTexas]

Oh, Ok.  No need for a manual, I can pretty much download anything I need in those regards.  I thought you had a NFA Uzi, after having shot a real one, not much interest in a semiauto only version with that long 16 inch barrel.  The three times I shot a full auto Uzi were fun, but not fun enough for me to acquire one.  They seem to have dipped a bit in price these days, down about a grand from what they were last year.  You can get a decent one for about $12-13K now days.  (That is cheap compared to the $40K that a MP5 will set you back.) The Sterlings are in the $15K price range with the Swedish K.  However my wises don't seem to matter, I've been told that if I want a machine gun, a M2 carbine is the only one at the top of the list.  Herself really likes her CMP M1 carbine and is pushing for something that eats ammo faster.  Stamps are not an issue for me, I will wait for something I want if the bank account agrees. 

I agree about the .308 battle rifles.  Got a M1A that is devastating on pigs.  It's a Springfield with a 16.25 inch barrel and that works for me just fine.  The Norinco arms I have come across were all acceptable, their semi M-14 had a good reputation. 

[kevinqjhps]

The M2 or a UZI are the sensible choices. Both are very manageable in full auto, well as the AR-15 is also. I don't know about the AR platform in .308, haven't shot one, but the M-14 in full auto is worthless. I am 6 feet tall and 185 and no matter how strong you hang on to it if you air for the torso the second round will hit the head and the third will go to the sky, well unless you are shooting at a 7 footer.

If you are quick enough you can get 10 two round bursts on target. I have two suppressors and a SBR but don't want something with the 'happy switch.' I have a friend with AR's, AK's, MP5 and UZI's all class three that I can use. It's a ammo cost thing that keeps me away from them myself.

Probably the hot ticket would be a Class 3 UZI with a .22 conversion kit. With that you could register the 8' barrel as a SBR and have the .22 barrel cut to 8". That gives you the best of both worlds.

[PhilZ]

The American 180 is a good midprice full auto in 22LR.  At 1200 rounds per minute, you can empty the 275rd drum in seconds. 

[MikeInTexas]

Probably the hot ticket would be a Class 3 UZI with a .22 conversion kit. With that you could register the 8' barrel as a SBR and have the .22 barrel cut to 8". That gives you the best of both worlds.

Kevin, you do know that if you have a legal NFA full auto Uzi, you would not need to get another stamp to shorten the barrel.  Once it is a registered machine gun, the barrel length does not matter. 

I agree with Phil, an American 180 has been on my want list for a long time.  If you only wanted a range toy, a Tippmann miniature M1919 would make my list also.

I think you would find that an full auto .308 AR-10 pattern rifle would be easier to manage, but probably not by much.  I understand the issue with the M-14, it also applies to the FAL and G3.  When you get a full power battle rifles weight down to what the average Joe can carry without complaining too much, you get to where it's hard to manage a full auto burst.  While I really like the AR-15, for some reason can't find much love for it's bigger brother.  Shot one as recently as a few weeks ago, just don't like them.

If you just want two shot bursts, the binary triggers, that are exploding in popularity right now, are the way to go.  With minimal practice most regular shooters can get real close to cyclic rate out of their ARs.  Bonus is you don't have to deal with the drawbacks of a bump fire stock.  I know a lot of folks see no use for a civilian to have something like that, they say it's a waste of ammo, inaccurate, you don't need a weapon for suppressive fire, etc.  However, recent US Army studies have shown that full auto fire is more effective in engaging moving targets than semi auto fire. Also if folks want to spend their own money on ammo to 'waste' what business is it of me to complain?  Rapid fire is also devastating at close range.  I may buy a Franklin binary for a AR to just have and use at the range.  Not trusting enough to put it on a primary weapon right now.

For those not familiar, binary triggers fire when you pull the trigger and fire when you release the trigger.  You get two shots when normally you would get just one.  They are legal because it takes a different movement of the finger to get each shot.  With a little practice you can simulate full auto fire from a semi auto gun.  I watched a guy at the range empty a 30 round magazine in just a few seconds.  It was amazing how fast he could shoot it.  In hind sight I should have asked to try it out, I had plenty of ammo.

[PhilZ]

Probably the hot ticket would be a Class 3 UZI with a .22 conversion kit. With that you could register the 8' barrel as a SBR and have the .22 barrel cut to 8". That gives you the best of both worlds.

Kevin, you do know that if you have a legal NFA full auto Uzi, you would not need to get another stamp to shorten the barrel.  Once it is a registered machine gun, the barrel length does not matter. 

I agree with Phil, an American 180 has been on my want list for a long time.  If you only wanted a range toy, a Tippmann miniature M1919 would make my list also.

I think you would find that an full auto .308 AR-10 pattern rifle would be easier to manage, but probably not by much.  I understand the issue with the M-14, it also applies to the FAL and G3.  When you get a full power battle rifles weight down to what the average Joe can carry without complaining too much, you get to where it's hard to manage a full auto burst.  While I really like the AR-15, for some reason can't find much love for it's bigger brother.  Shot one as recently as a few weeks ago, just don't like them.

If you just want two shot bursts, the binary triggers, that are exploding in popularity right now, are the way to go.  With minimal practice most regular shooters can get real close to cyclic rate out of their ARs.  Bonus is you don't have to deal with the drawbacks of a bump fire stock.  I know a lot of folks see no use for a civilian to have something like that, they say it's a waste of ammo, inaccurate, you don't need a weapon for suppressive fire, etc.  However, recent US Army studies have shown that full auto fire is more effective in engaging moving targets than semi auto fire. Also if folks want to spend their own money on ammo to 'waste' what business is it of me to complain?  Rapid fire is also devastating at close range.  I may buy a Franklin binary for a AR to just have and use at the range.  Not trusting enough to put it on a primary weapon right now.

For those not familiar, binary triggers fire when you pull the trigger and fire when you release the trigger.  You get two shots when normally you would get just one.  They are legal because it takes a different movement of the finger to get each shot.  With a little practice you can simulate full auto fire from a semi auto gun.  I watched a guy at the range empty a 30 round magazine in just a few seconds.  It was amazing how fast he could shoot it.  In hind sight I should have asked to try it out, I had plenty of ammo.

You have to check your state laws regarding the binary trigger.  Some states define a machine gun as anything that shoots more than one round per PULL of the trigger.  Pull and release fires two rounds per pull and are illegal in states like Iowa and Washington.

[MikeInTexas]

Yes, you are correct.  Unfortunately anytime you post on a national firearm forum, you need to add the caveat---> check your local and state laws.  I live in a relatively free state and take it for granted way too often.