Range Report - FTF Problems?

[sgtdraino]

Hey gang,

I have finally gotten a chance to go through firearms qualifications with my R9S, for backup/off duty carry. Prior to qualifications, I've only had a few rounds through the gun. Maybe 10 in all. I had stripped it, and put it back together, but had not cleaned it. It basically looked clean at that point. Ammo is Speer GD 124GR, as recommended.

Day qualifications, 50 rounds, scored 92.4. Not bad, a little lower than usual, but not surprising for a mouse gun. I did have two FTFs (Failure To Feeds) during the course. Each time, racking the slide sent the errant round the rest of the way into the chamber.

Night qualifications, 50 rounds, 82.5. Since it's recommended you break this gun down and clean it every 50 rounds, that is what I did following the Day course. I stripped the weapon, wiped off all the dirt (didn't use solvent, was in the field, but it did look clean when I was done) and old grease, and using my finger applied a fresh coating of grease to the areas recommended in the FAQ (used Super Lube, as instructed). For the other areas I used a little Militec-1. Reassembled the weapon, and proceeded with the Night course.

Long story short, I had MANY MANY FTFs. I'd say close to 50% of the rounds FTFd. Most of the time a rack of the slide would send the round the rest of the way in, but occasionally it would eject the round out of the gun. When that happened, I'd have to beg the instructor to let me put it back in and shoot it (which he did, but it's not cool).

But quite often the FTF would involve the slide simply failing to strip a round off the magazine. The slide would often return to full forward, with no round in the chamber. That sounds like the slide isn't going back far enough, or the rounds aren't being pushed up to the top of the magazine like they're supposed to.

It seems like the problem must have something to do with the way I cleaned the weapon, since most of the problems started after that. Anybody have any ideas of some things that could cause so many FTFs?

Could I have put on too much grease? Too little? Any ideas?

I did not attempt to clean the recoil spring or the magazines during this fieldstripping.

[Aglifter]

I think it may have involved not cleaning the gun fully after 50 rounds -- the pup gets very, very dirty -- I've never had a problem, but I've also never gone over 50 rounds between cleanings.  My other thought would be how was your hand feeling?  I know after 100 rounds out of the pup mine would be getting quite abused, and I might not be holding it stiffly anymore.  It's really quite a simple gun to clean -- has almost no parts, but you do need a place to clean it, and the tools to do so.

[sslater]

sgtdrano,
You sound like an experienced shooter, so I'll assume you put some grease in the slide's grooves as well as on the frame.
If not, that may be something to try.  I've taken to putting a smear of grease wherever the anodized finish indicates contact.

One other thing to check before packing your R9 up and sending to the Rohrbaugh facility:  Erich and I both found a tiny flake of metal actually locked our guns up.  Mine jammed tight after firing one magazine.  I couldn't rack it out of batttery.  The range I shoot at gets very nervous about shooters messing with their guns on the firing line, so I took it home and broke the slide loose with a good shove.

I reported on that a couple of weeks ago.  Erich replied he had a similar issue and sent his gun back.  Rohrbaugh found a flake of metal.  I stripped mine again and rooted around in the grease with a Q-Tip.  Found a flake of cartidge case plating material.
BTW:  I went back to the range a few days later and purposely fired 100 rounds of various types of ammo.  Had only one FTF(eed) when I limp-wristed a weak-hand shot.  Had to rap the back of the slide and was back in business.

Hope this helps, and glad to have you aboard the forum.


Steve

[sgtdraino]

I think it may have involved not cleaning the gun fully after 50 rounds -- the pup gets very, very dirty -- I've never had a problem, but I've also never gone over 50 rounds between cleanings.  My other thought would be how was your hand feeling?  I know after 100 rounds out of the pup mine would be getting quite abused, and I might not be holding it stiffly anymore.  It's really quite a simple gun to clean -- has almost no parts, but you do need a place to clean it, and the tools to do so.

I am pretty sure the gun was sufficiently clean of dirt and old grease. If the problem is cleaning related, I think it must be a matter of too much, too little, or missed lubricating a spot. For example, the one place I couldn't reach adequately (IMO) is the hole on the barrel through which the barrel pin goes. But then, I'm not really clear on how much lubricating the pin/that hole should get. It's not really mentioned in the FAQ illustrations, as far as I can tell.

Tired hand may actually be the prime culprit. My previous BUG was a Kel-Tec P3AT, so I know how important grip and control can be to the proper functioning of some of these small-but-powerful guns. The problems I had began occuring during night fire, after having shot 50 rounds through the R9S, AND after having shot 50 rounds .40 through my duty G23. I suppose it is possible my hands were too tired to grip adequately.

sgtdrano,
You sound like an experienced shooter, so I'll assume you put some grease in the slide's grooves as well as on the frame.
If not, that may be something to try.  I've taken to putting a smear of grease wherever the anodized finish indicates contact.

One other thing to check before packing your R9 up and sending to the Rohrbaugh facility:  Erich and I both found a tiny flake of metal actually locked our guns up.

I didn't want to overdo the grease. The FAQ only mentioned putting grease on the frame rails, not the slide rails, so that is what I did. However, I did put Militec-1 on the slide rails. All of the spots that showed wear were parts that I had greased.

My action seems quite smooth, so (hopefully) I don't have the flake-o-metal problem.

Thanks for the comments, guys.

[Aglifter]

Check out the FAQ -- it's pretty hard to overdo the grease.

[MountainMan]

Sgt

Are you sure you assembled the recoil spring in the right direction.   Just wondering since your troubles mainly began after cleaning.

[R9SCarry]

I think there is a fine dividing line re grease - in as much as, if shooting exceeds the ideal cleaning period I do think that ''grease crud'' can slow the slide - I found this with my SIG 226.  I more and more feel that modest greasing is best instead of loads of it - with a cleaning that bit sooner - of course too ammo affects a bit re fouling.  As long as slide rails are lubricated and not dry then it should be fine - and what is put on slide will transfer to frame usually quite adequately.

The lube in barrel lug slot can be quite generous but then really, in theory - as long as all sliding and bearing surfaces have lube all should well.

True too - grip is very critical - almost too critical it may seem, until you realize the problems of making sure recoil energy goes thru and into the gun and is not wasted into the anatomy - not so easy.

The FTF quotient was high for sure - way too high.  But if slide travel compromized then two things come to mind - the grease aspect if slowing slide but also maybe a very ''fresh'' recoil spring.  I do think the recoil spring is perhaps a tad too critical - but that is due to the gun's small dimensions - bit like considering some prob's folks get with sub compact 1911's.

I am still concerned re FTF ratio - see how the pup shoots next time.

[sgtdraino]

The lube in barrel lug slot can be quite generous but then really, in theory - as long as all sliding and bearing surfaces have lube all should well.

Forgive my ignorance. Is the barrel lug slot the hole on the barrel that the assembly pin goes through? That is the one place that may have not been sufficiently lubricated when I cleaned between courses.

Yes, my recoil spring is properly oriented.

It is pretty amazing how fast the gunk builds up in that grease. Little particles of... gunpowder I guess... all over the place.

This weekend I'm planning to apply Militec-1 all over the sliding surfaces and heat treat it in there. Then I'll try the grease on top of that.

The pictures detailing the grease application were quite helpful. I was wondering if somebody could do some similiar pictures for the application of oil. This would be helpful to me.

I was also wondering if everybody's REALLY sure that all that grease is necessary. Here I draw comparisons to my Kel-Tec P3AT. Again a very small, light gun with a comparitively powerful round, and a steel slide working on an aluminum frame. The P3AT does recommend grease on one or two specific spots. The rest of the gun however, including the rails, seems to work fine with whatever your lube of choice is (I use Militec-1). And the P3AT's rails are FAR less robust than the rails on the R9S.

If a synthentic oil were able to be used on more areas of the R9S, I think this would definitely keep it from getting dirty as fast. Or even as dirty period. I also wonder if it would improve its operational reliability, and if the wear and tear is really all that different than with grease. Comments?

I haven't tried grip tape yet, sounds interesting. Any notion of where I might find some locally?

[Aglifter]

Lowes, home depot, skate board shops -- it's just self-adhesive, non-skid, trimmed to fit.

[R9SCarry]

sgt - yes you should find tape in several places.  Mine is tread tape and a bit coarse but works.  Try Ace hardware too.  There are pics around of some tape additions - including one in the ''Eric slideshow".

I don't think pics would really help a lot re oiling - but would suggest application with a toothpic.  Dip into oil or apply a good drop then feed that to rail areas under control and allow to propogate.  The remaining propogation should work with reassembly and slide racking - of course slide can be replaced without recoil spring for that action.

Remember when thinking of KelTec - that is a polymer frame.  The pup is Stainless running on hi-grade aluminum and so lube is much more necessary and critical.

Yes - barrel lug slot is indeed where pin goes thru - a high stress area and so lube should be adequate.  That slot has to ''ride'' the pin during cycling, as barrel unlocks and locks up.

[Aglifter]

My favorite gun toys I ever bought were my micro oilers from Brownells -- 3 for ?  Less than $10 -- they make oiling any gun MUCH easier, at least for me -- that, and one of those pump oil cans for Hoppes solvent, so it doesn't spill/evaporate all the time.

[Michigunner]

I also have three micro oilers from Brownells.  They are highly recommended.

Bill

[harrydog]

Yup, I have some of those micro oilers and find them to be indespensible. You can apply small amounts of oil with great percision and no mess.
On the subject of oil versus grease - George Fennel, the technical guy behind FP-10 (or at least he used to be), strongly disagrees with EVER needing grease on a firearm. He claims that grease is inferior in every way. By the way, he sells grease as well as oil.
I'm not convinced that he's correct regarding this subject, but I thought it was worth mentioning.

[jarcher]

I'm not convinced the lube had anything to do with those failures.  One thing I learned was that when failures with the round half fed occur, dropping the magazine allows the slide to go into battery.  As for the slide closing without bringing a round to the chamber, that seems like the magazine was not fully inserted.  Maybe there is an issue with your mag catch?

As I read more and more, I am thinking that maybe it's not the recoil spring that needs to set but rather the magazine springs.  I am now wondering if, when I sent my R9s back to Rohrbaugh, they used my magazine to test it or theirs.  They had no problems with it, but when I received it back it had the same failures as before I sent it..  If they were using their magazine then that might explain it.

Of course, my pistol has been fine for a while now, and I left the magazine loaded.  So maybe the magazine springs set solving the problem.

Just a guess.

[harrydog]

 I am now wondering if, when I sent my R9s back to Rohrbaugh, they used my magazine to test it or theirs.  They had no problems with it, but when I received it back it had the same failures as before I sent it..  If they were using their magazine then that might explain it.

I'd be surprised if they didn't use your magazines. When my R9 went back for FTF problems, they reminded me that it was improtant that I include my magazines along with the gun.