Author Topic: Drifting along with the tumbling tumble weed  (Read 11814 times)

Offline R9SCarry

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Re: Drifting along with the tumbling tumble weed
« Reply #15 on: May 29, 2005, 11:13:18 PM »
I'll keep a back seat - most know my thoughts I think thru the FAQ (BTW - that site will be down from approx 2pm EDT Tuesday 31st - for about 6 hours - the server is being relocated).

Far as I am concerned the tumble aspect is relatively occasional - one or two guys fired my #2 R9 yesterday and with just good ol FMJ WWB at about 10 yards - all holes seemed clean - certainly any tumble if present was barely starting.

I am firmly a believer that this gun will only see close range combat - and frankly, the least of my concerns is if just one Gold Dot should vere a bit - when there are 6 others available.  I accept it as a minor compromize I guess.
Chris - R9S
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Offline logical

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Re: Drifting along with the tumbling tumble weed
« Reply #16 on: May 29, 2005, 11:17:36 PM »
With all due respect to Sanow's experience, he was talking about 9mm ball ammo vs .45.     Nobody I know uses 9mm ball ammo for a defensive gun.   I sure wouldn't.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2005, 11:18:07 PM by logical »

Offline dmobrien2001

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Re: Drifting along with the tumbling tumble weed
« Reply #17 on: May 30, 2005, 08:43:46 AM »
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Certainly it is important for the round to not tumble.  A bullet only expands when it hits something head on and a sideways bullet will not expand, nor will it make a "bigger hole".  A sideways, non-expanded bullet will actually probably penetrate deeper (almost like a non-HP round) because it's cross section would be smaller than an expanded bullet hitting head on.

It seems to me that putting a little effort into finding a good self defense round that cycles reliably and doesn't "tumble" should be your focus if you like the gun as opposed to all this breathless talk of polls and investigations.  

1) A keyhole round does NOT penetrate as deep.  It's cross section is larger than an expanded round from the moment of impact through completion of penetration. While a HP doesn't expand until some few inches of penetration in response to the medium it travels in.

2) Yes, I agree. Finding a good SD round that doesn't tumble is a good idea. There is perhaps a dozen name brand rounds that I could evaluate. Looking at all the targets in the FAQ ammo tests shows few targets that don't exhibit some tendency to keyhole.

And thanks for the condescending remark. I appreciate your concern about my "breathless talk of polls and investigations".   This pistol shouldn't do this, to one degree or another, with nearly every available premium SD ammunition.

Smallest 9mm pistol in the world: nearly $1000
Very exclusive ownership: 9 month wait
Keyholes: Priceless  :'(
« Last Edit: May 30, 2005, 01:12:01 PM by dmobrien2001 »
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Offline dmobrien2001

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Re: Drifting along with the tumbling tumble weed
« Reply #18 on: May 30, 2005, 02:18:45 PM »
Looks like Win 115 SilverTip JHP is the lack of tumble winner.  Too bad. Not a newer bullet design.

http://www.acbsystems.com/boards/thr/r9s-tests-03/basefile/targets.htm



Based on evidence from the FAQ writer's own targets.  Few instances of lack of keyhole being evidenced in any ammo and there are plenty of ammo brands to view.

This is my last word on this subject.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2005, 02:21:29 PM by dmobrien2001 »
- Dan

Offline TW

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Drifting along with the tumbling tumble weed
« Reply #19 on: May 30, 2005, 03:42:30 PM »
>>Quite frankly, I think the Drifter (dmobrien2001) makes some good points, and I hope those last words of his WON'T be his last on the subject...because I think the subject of keyhole flight warrants further investigation, and hopefully answers to help solve the problem and improve on the design of the R9, as might be necessary.  

To do this, I believe it will speed up this process if we all work together, and hopefully provide useful input that Karl and Eric can work with.  So the R9 may not be perfect...?  So what...!...and what else is...?...!!  This does not diminish my appreciation for the R9 at all - particularly given I have a couple bullet types which seem to work well in my guns.  I will continue to carry it, with confidence.  

I look forward to the opportunity to learn more about the R9 and perhaps be a part of helping to improve on the design of my favorite Pocket Pistol.  We have a rare thing here with this forum, and the many knowledgeable people who participate and contribute, like the Drifter.  Obviously he knows more about the subject than I do.  I hope we can learn to face this problem together and be a part of the solution...together.  Pie in the sky...?  Maybe...but we won't know if we don't try, and better learn to learn from one another, and agree to disagree from time to time. **TW stumbles off the soapbox and goes to sit quietly in the corner...Yeah, right - LOL...!**


Offline Newt

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Re: Drifting along with the tumbling tumble weed
« Reply #20 on: May 30, 2005, 04:33:34 PM »
I too would like to see more study on this aspect of this pistol. I have not seen any tumbling with my two but I will now be inspecting targets much closer. If in fact this is happening I agree with TW, we need to document it and work to fix it although I would have thought that if this was a problem it would have been evident in design & development. Lets all check our targets closely and find out if this tumbling is barrel specific or production wide.We can only make a great gun better by working together and reporting real world data back to the producers.
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Offline R9SCarry

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Re: Drifting along with the tumbling tumble weed
« Reply #21 on: May 30, 2005, 05:16:27 PM »
New thread by mjt HERE on this subject - to which I have replied with some of my own thoughts again.

I agree with TW - any and all observations we have on this can only be useful.  Given time, there is much further testing and evaluation I'd like to do.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2005, 05:48:07 PM by R9SCarry »
Chris - R9S
Guns don't kill people - people kill people.
R9 FAQ Site
NRA Life member and Certified Instructor.

Offline logical

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Re: Drifting along with the tumbling tumble weed
« Reply #22 on: May 30, 2005, 05:36:26 PM »
Quote
New thread by Logical HERE on this subject - to which I have replied with some of my own thoughts again.

I agree with TW - any and all observations we have on this can only be useful.  Given time, there is much further testing and evaluation I'd like to do.

I think you mean a new thread by "someone else"....wasn't me.

Offline R9SCarry

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Re: Drifting along with the tumbling tumble weed
« Reply #23 on: May 30, 2005, 05:47:42 PM »
Sorry Logical - my bad!  it was mjt.  I'll correct my post above.
Chris - R9S
Guns don't kill people - people kill people.
R9 FAQ Site
NRA Life member and Certified Instructor.

Offline dmobrien2001

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Re: Drifting along with the tumbling tumble weed
« Reply #24 on: May 30, 2005, 09:26:11 PM »
Not posting, just making notes:

From http://www.rohrbaughforum.com/YaBB.cgi?board=R9S;action=display;num=1091220026
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Our rifling is a 1:16 right hand twist - a standard for 9mm in the industry

From http://www.taurususa.com/products/product-details.cfm?model=905I-SSch&category=Revolver
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Barrel Length:        1-3/4"
Rate of Twist:        1:9.5"

From http://www.kahr.com/pistols_PM9093.html
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Barrel        3.0", polygonal rifling; 1-10 right-hand twist

From http://www.teamglock.com/Glock-Buyers-Guide/Glock-26.htm
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Barrel LENGTH 3.46in/88mm
Length of Twist 9.84in/250mm

From http://www.ruger.com/Firearms/FAProdSpecsView?model=13008
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Barrel Length:      3.9"
Twist:      1:10" RH

Hmmm, G-T called the R9 ROT about half the Kahr... Man, were they way off. :-/ 1:16 vs 1:10.   Industry standard, however, is a bit faster than 1:16...

PS: Karl told Maria to have me send back my "early" serial number gun... more when it returns.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2005, 05:57:48 PM by dmobrien2001 »
- Dan