.22 v. .25 for a pocket pistol

[PursuitSS]

If you have to go with a low recoil .32, how about a Walther PP or PPK.

PursuitSS

[BillinPittsburgh]

If you have to go with a low recoil .32, how about a Walther PP or PPK.

PursuitSS

Unfortunately that is more like the mid-size gun in the ultimate battery I am trying to achieve.

Recall what I am trying to achieve:  1)  full-size gun, already filled by the 4" XD9; 2)  something as small as possible but still meeting minimum power level requirements, hopefully a subcompact 9mm like a Glock 26 or 3" XD9; and 3)  a pocket pistol.  #1 is for training, home defense, and carry when possible, #2 is the most likely to be carried, and #3 is for when nothing bigger can be carried.

Quite some time ago, on another forum, a friend who goes by "SouthNarc" posted what he considered to be "the essential battery."  His essential battery consisted of his 4" Kimber with full-size grip, his S&W J-frame, and his Seecamp .32.  Same theory, different selections to fill each role.

The point of the .22 v. .25 v. .32 discussion is to look for possible contenders for the pocket pistol.  A Walther PPK, or a S&W J-frame, is as big as a subcompact 9mm without the advantages of the 9mm.  I don't see too much difficulty in getting her a subcompact 9mm she can use.  Getting the PPK still leaves unfilled the need for a pocket gun.

[Paveway]

Bill, go for the .32 Beretta Tomcat. It's got the tip up barrel feature and is only slightly larger than a .25 Beretta or Taurus. My daughter was 12 when I took her to the range for the first time and she was able to load and shoot it quite confidently, if that helps. She now refers to all small pocket guns as "cricket guns" in reference to what Will Smith carried and called his tiny space gun in the movie "Men in Black".

What I did to get her warmed up to the blast and recoil was to put a pair of shooting gloves on her and let her shoot a full size .22 target pistol. We moved on to the .32 then .380 then .45 then a 10mm 1911 with handloads! I wanted to see how far she wanted to go up the power ladder, she kept going until she got the involuntary muscle twitch in her hands. But she did empty the magazine in the 10mm.

Keep the target real close, around 10 feet to get her confidence up and you should be OK.

[BillinPittsburgh]

Paveway,

Great job with your daughter!!!

My wife already has confidence with general shooting ability.  One of the more recent times we went shooting together, she surprised me by putting the target out to 15, 20, and 25 yards, and hitting it with her XD9.

It is just the recoil/noise/muzzle blast issue.  I now have her (and me) doubling up with earplugs and then electronic earmuffs over the plugs, which really cuts down on noise while still permitting normal conversation.  Gloves may help, but she won't have gloves in the real world.

Also, with really small autos, I think having her hand that close to the moving slide makes her nervous.  She knows to put both thumbs on the same side of the gun, and knows that rubbing against the side of the slide is no big deal (my thumbs are both on my slide every time I shoot), but it still makes her nervous, which I think was a big problem with the Kel-Tec P-32.

I can see the Tomcat having potential here.

[twostar]

Most everyone seems to agree that a .22 or .25 is a last ditch option but, actual results I have seen show the .22 to "do more damage" than the .25.  Trauma surgeons hate them.  They take bizarre turns and end up destroying a great deal of tissue as they wander around.  To their detriment, the .22 is a dirty cartridge.  There is no reason a defensive weapon should not be squeaky clean at all times, so that would not present a problem but, .22's do leave residues that cause more malfunctions than most calibers.  They are even famous for getting under the ejector in revolvers and making the cylinders difficult to open or even rotate.

If this was my only option I'd probably go for a .22, but I would clean the bejesus out of the gun on a regualr basis.  S&W is now making some nice little .22 Magnum revolvers.  Hmmmm.

[Richard S]

Bill:

I'm just catching up on my reading and have seen your initial post on this thread.  

I used to own one of the Beretta .25 ACPs and liked it pretty well.  The tip-up barrel is an interesting design with its own advantages, but it has one little drawback.  Since it ejects spent cartridges more or less straight up into the air, it can occasionally result in dropping a hot piece of brass down the front of an open blouse.  (I won't go into detail as to how I learned that years ago other than to say that the lady involved never went to the range with me again and is no longer a part of my life.    )

As noted by Twostar,the .22 LR and the .22 Magnum cartridges pack more "punch" than the .25 ACP, but they are also "dirtier" and do not feed as reliably in a semi-automatic weapon.  I learned that back in 1965 when I purchased a Walther PPK chambered for .22 LR.  (Great little plinker, if you didn't mind the occasional jams and "bites" on the shooting hand.)  

You may recall from previous threads that my own little wife carried one of the NAA MiniMag revolvers until she "requisitioned" my Seecamp .32 with its old-ivory grips . . . this one:

Regarding the Taurus pistols, one of my Agency friends swears by them and has carried one for years in unpleasant places.

But all of that leads to this -- The "Baby Browning" ("Le Bébé") has been resurrected and is now being offered in this country by Precision Small Arms under license from Fabrique Nationale of Herstal, Belgium ("FN"). May I suggest either the Renaissance or Impériale model as worthy of your consideration.  

http://precisionsmallarms.com/imperiale.htm

[BillinPittsburgh]

Thanks for the info, Richard.

How do you - and your wife - find the recoil of the Seecamp .32 compares to the NAA .32?

[Paveway]

Bill:
 
But all of that leads to this -- The "Baby Browning" ("Le Bébé") has been resurrected and is now being offered in this country by Precision Small Arms under license from Fabrique Nationale of Herstal, Belgium ("FN"). May I suggest either the Renaissance or Impériale model as worthy of your consideration.  

http://precisionsmallarms.com/imperiale.htm

Bless you, Richard ! I need one of these and a Hi-Power for my John M. Browning "tribute" collection.
     Daddy's goin' shoppin !!!!!!

[Richard S]

Thanks for the info, Richard.

How do you - and your wife - find the recoil of the Seecamp .32 compares to the NAA .32?

With the understanding that felt recoil is highly subjective, we both seem to feel that the Gurardian has slightly less recoil than the Seecamp.  That's probably due to the Guardian's slightly heavier weight, which I have also increased a tad with a pair of silver grips.  "Her Honor" seems able to tolerate the Seecamp well enough, though, and I suspect that she "requisitioned" it largely due to esthetic reasons.  She has also issued a "decree" that: "The previous owner shall remove the ivory grips and install the original panels whenever the current owner takes the Seecamp to the range, following which the previous owner shall clean the pistol, reinstall the aforesaid ivories, and return the package forthwith to its present owner."  (The things we do for love.   )

Let us know what you and your wife select.

[Richard S]

Bless you, Richard ! I need one of these and a Hi-Power for my John M. Browning "tribute" collection.
     Daddy's goin' shoppin !!!!!!

Paveway:

You're quite welcome!  I've got a case of that particular "itch" myself.   :-/

[BillinPittsburgh]

Thanks again for the info, Richard.  It looks like the Seecamp .32 is out of the running.

At this point, it looks like I am looking for a chance for her to try a Beretta Tomcat, and if that doesn't work, then it will be a .22 or .25.  Richard's suggestion of the PSA gun looks very interesting, and has a serious size advantage over the Taurus I originally thought about.  This gun appears to only be available in .25.

The fact that it can be had in multiple attractive configurations could also be very helpful.  I really like that Imperiale model.

I totally understand about the things we do for love.  My wife was initially unhappy when I got her the Springfield XD, even though it was the 9mm she was most comfortable with and shot the best (she has tried just about everything in existence).  One of the first things she said was that I should expect to be the one who cleans it.  She now likes the gun and may occasionally carry it, but I still get to clean it.