The Rohrbaugh Forum
Rohrbaugh Products and Accessories => Rohrbaugh R9 (all variations) => Topic started by: Reinz on June 28, 2012, 10:21:31 PM
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Ok here we go again under the subject of FTF and FTE.
Images and concepts just pop into my mind, so I hope I can explain THIS thought.
It's basically along the lines of break in. We have all seen the tiny shavings in our R9's from the gun "setteling in" or breaking in so to speak.
If you think about it; this is a grinding force, much more friction than normal. This is why it is SO VERY IMPORTANT for a new gun to be very well lubricated and held with a more than EXTRA firm grip than usual during break in.
Picture the slide while it is grinding or shaving metal. It is "skipping" or trying to put the brakes on. This is naturally going to cause a FTF(feed) or FTE unless held extra firm. And sometimes the grip just won't matter if the "bite" in the metal is too harsh.
So I say, during break-in, don't get bent, if there are a FEW problems (Assuming recommended ammo is used). However, if after 150-200 rounds, they continue, then lets investigate the problem. However, if problematic, that's a different story.
Any Thoughts ?
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Any Thoughts ?
I think you raise a very good point and I've made similar observations. I suspect the slide and barrel of the R9 are most likely the smallest and lightest of any firearm chambered for 9mm and the brothers Rohrbaugh have taken steps in the lug on the barrel and pocket in the frame to take some of what is a pretty violent impact off the slide stop pin itself and transfer some of it into the frame. It's the area where the barrel contacts the frame that we see this "self limiting" wear during break in, and that creates the shavings we're all familiar with. Once the barrel has worn the frame until it conforms perfectly the wear stops.
Those shavings float around in a mechanism built to very tight tolerances, and a small amount of shavings can impede the chambering of the next round or the proper extraction of the previous. Until this break in stops and the shavings have been removed (though normal cleaning) the firearm is more prone to a FTF or FTE.
While I think it's always important to shoot an R9 with a firm grip - during break in it's even more important.
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We still have to face the fact that some R9's just do not work out ot the bpx. My first R9 would not function with any ammo I tried. Three of us shot it it it failed for all of us on every magazine. We were not beginners, I had a PM9 and the other two shooters owned PF9's which worked for them.
My second R9 has been flawless with at least 7 different kinds of ammo for me so it is not all operator problems with these pistols.
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Reinz:
In my opinion, you are spot on, as usual, with your analysis. The R9s are hand assembled at the factory by or under the watchful eyes of the Brothers Rohrbaugh and test fired to insure reliability before they leave the door. The chances of one being defective when it leaves the factory are infinitesimal. With proper lubrication, with suitable ammunition, and with the owner doing his or her part, the R9 will function as designed -- first time, every time.
These pistols are the "Ferrari Berlinettas" of the pocket pistol world, not the "John Deere Tractors."
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Reinz,
I second the agreement you are 100% correct!
But I have to know, who makes the double magazine pouch in the picture? I am still waiting, waiting, and waiting for one to be made for me.
Thanks,
Robar233
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Ok here we go again under the subject of FTF and FTE.
Images and concepts just pop into my mind, so I hope I can explain THIS thought.
It's basically along the lines of break in. We have all seen the tiny shavings in our R9's from the gun "setteling in" or breaking in so to speak.
If you think about it; this is a grinding force, much more friction than normal. This is why it is SO VERY IMPORTANT for a new gun to be very well lubricated and held with a more than EXTRA firm grip than usual during break in.
Picture the slide while it is grinding or shaving metal. It is "skipping" or trying to put the brakes on. This is naturally going to cause a FTF(feed) or FTE unless held extra firm. And sometimes the grip just won't matter if the "bite" in the metal is too harsh.
So I say, during break-in, don't get bent, if there are a FEW problems (Assuming recommended ammo is used). However, if after 150-200 rounds, they continue, then lets investigate the problem. However, if problematic, that's a different story.
Any Thoughts ?
+1. I could not agree more.
I have experienced a lot of problems with another Manufacters gun before I switched to the PUP.
I have owned around 12 PUPs over the past few years. I have shot all of them except 2 and have not experienced the problems that have come up more recently.
The first thing I do is clean and lubricate the gun. On my EDC gun I disassemble and lubricate it every other week. The lubrication and ammo choice I feel has led to the a trouble free experience for me.
I will say the troubles could be shooting style, experience with the R9 or maintenance.
I had to give up another manufactures gun because of the troubles I had.
It may be the same for some on the new R9 owners. I say give the PUP a chance, follow the recommendations of the forum on ammo and maintenance and see what happens.
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Reinz,
who makes the double magazine pouch in the picture?
Robar233
Howdy Robar - That pouch is a Graham. I believe he quit doing holsters, I hope I am wrong. I love this holster for comfort not for carrying two mags. It just does not shift in the pocket, so IF I ever really do NEED to use it, I know exactly where the mag will be when I need it.
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The first thing I do is clean and lubricate the gun. On my EDC gun I disassemble and lubricate it every other week. The lubrication and ammo choice I feel has led to the a trouble free experience for me.
Interesting - I believe I have read that Richard S does this weekly. Please correct me if I am wrong.
Here we have two very experienced members/shooters excercising due discipline which apparantly pays off!
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I will say the troubles could be shooting style, experience with the R9 or maintenance.
I had to give up another manufactures gun because of the troubles I had.
It may be the same for some on the new R9 owners. I say give the PUP a chance, follow the recommendations of the forum on ammo and maintenance and see what happens.
Wise words
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Reinz,
who makes the double magazine pouch in the picture?
Robar233
Howdy Robar - That pouch is a Graham. I believe he quit doing holsters, I hope I am wrong. I love this holster for comfort not for carrying two mags. It just does not shift in the pocket, so IF I ever really do NEED to use it, I know exactly where the mag will be when I need it.
unfortunately Ron's holster site is gone and I don't believe he is making holsters any more or at least not selling holsters.
His holster forum is still up but not active that I can see. http://grahamholsterforum.yuku.com/
Here is a recent post and George's (Admin.) reply
Very sad, he had some great holsters.
Just stopped by to say hello.
Hope Ron looks in from time to time.
GeorgeH
#1
Posts: 1898
(03/26/11 10:31:01)
Administrator
Reply Quote More
My Recent Posts
I hope so. He hasn't responded to my e-mails for a year now.
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Does that help at all or is it only the force of actual rounds being fired that will accomplish any break in?
Or what about hand cycling the slide with something like a very fine polish or lapping compound?
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Reinz & George,
Thanks for the scoop on the mag pouch. It really does look like a good design. I can see that the flare at the bottom would keep it in place. I am sorry Graham is no longer in business. May be someone will copy the design?
Robar233
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Does that help at all or is it only the force of actual rounds being fired that will accomplish any break in?
Or what about hand cycling the slide with something like a very fine polish or lapping compound?
It's my opinion that this would not help. There's only a very slight (minimal) break in between the slide and the frame - this is fit very well at the factory and all I see there is a slight polishing and some removal of the black frame coating in a few places. The bulk of the break in occurs where the barrel and the lug on the bottom of the barrel contact the frame.
As I look at the design of the R9 I see it to be a little different than most pistols. In most pistols the brunt of the force of stopping the slide at its most rearward position is carried by the slide stop pin and transferred into the frame by the slide stop pin, but the R9 is not exactly that way. On an R9 a barrel lug fits into a pocket in the frame and its downward motion is stopped by contact with the frame itself. This makes all the sense in the world to me as it changes the role of the slide stop pin from a part that would bear huge loads to only a guide to the barrel which unlocks the breach by camming the barrel downward disengaging it from the slide.
I believe this clever bit of design is what allows the R9 to be small and narrow and light and not self destruct by hammering the fit of the slide stop pin into the frame and opening up the fit.
The violence of this action couldn't be duplicated by hand cycling as you'd never be able to reach the velocities by hand that are reached during firing. In my own rather limited experience it seems as though this break in process happens during the first box or two of ammo and then stops as the barrel has by this time "bedded" itself in the frame, spreading the loads out over a larger area.
Occasionally I suspect the small amount of shavings generated are responsible for locking up the pistol when they get into some place they aren't supposed to be but for the most part a good cleaning or two early on gets rid of them before they can cause problems, leaving you with a properly broken in R9 that's GTG for a long service life.
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Does that help at all or is it only the force of actual rounds being fired that will accomplish any break in?
Or what about hand cycling the slide with something like a very fine polish or lapping compound?
It's my opinion that this would not help. There's only a very slight (minimal) break in between the slide and the frame - this is fit very well at the factory and all I see there is a slight polishing and some removal of the black frame coating in a few places. The bulk of the break in occurs where the barrel and the lug on the bottom of the barrel contact the frame.
As I look at the design of the R9 I see it to be a little different than most pistols. In most pistols the brunt of the force of stopping the slide at its most rearward position is carried by the slide stop pin and transferred into the frame by the slide stop pin, but the R9 is not exactly that way. On an R9 a barrel lug fits into a pocket in the frame and its downward motion is stopped by contact with the frame itself. This makes all the sense in the world to me as it changes the role of the slide stop pin from a part that would bear huge loads to only a guide to the barrel which unlocks the breach by camming the barrel downward disengaging it from the slide.
I believe this clever bit of design is what allows the R9 to be small and narrow and light and not self destruct by hammering the fit of the slide stop pin into the frame and opening up the fit.
The violence of this action couldn't be duplicated by hand cycling as you'd never be able to reach the velocities by hand that are reached during firing. In my own rather limited experience it seems as though this break in process happens during the first box or two of ammo and then stops as the barrel has by this time "bedded" itself in the frame, spreading the loads out over a larger area.
Occasionally I suspect the small amount of shavings generated are responsible for locking up the pistol when they get into some place they aren't supposed to be but for the most part a good cleaning or two early on gets rid of them before they can cause problems, leaving you with a properly broken in R9 that's GTG for a long service life.
JR:
You also have "broken the code," as it were. Thank you for posting that analysis.
The following is a link to an early set of still photographs from the FAQ site created by "R9SCarry" showing Eric Rohrbaugh take down, clean/lubricate, and reassemble the R9. Some things have changed since those photographs were taken, such as a redesign of the main recoil spring and perhaps more emphasis on the use of oil and less on grease, but pages 4-9 of the PDF link are illustrative of the importance of proper lubrication of the barrel-lug/pistol-frame interface.
http://www.thingameez.com/download-pdf/r9-eric-stills.pdf
After owning and carrying my R9 since May 2004 while closely following this Forum, it is my firm belief that nearly every complaint posted about the R9 can be traced to one of three causes: (1) improper cleaning/lubrication of the pistol; (2) the use of inferior ammunition; or (3) a "limp wristed" grip by the shooter. It's that simple.
"RS out."
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Reinz & George,
May be someone will copy the design?
Robar233
Robar - Robert at Meco has come across to me as very accomodating. I am positive that he will build it for you if you provide the photos - or rather, I can provide them for you if you wish.
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Count0- I concur with Richard that JR is correct. I would further add, to stay away from the lapping compound. Case in point; it you look at the wear points on a new Wilson, Baer, NightHawk, etc. The creme de la creme. You will notice that they do not wear Evenly. Thus, if one was to lap a gun in/at it's wear points, I believe that they could do more harm than good.
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Thus, if one was to lap a gun in/at it's wear points, I believe that they could do more harm than good.
I would agree with this assessment. One big reason is that cycling the slide by hand can't duplicate the same forces that firing the pistol create - if for no other reason that you are adding your own forces by grabbing the slide to cycle it and when being fired those forces aren't present. Firing is also way more violent than any hand action you could possibly create.
This is one of those rare circumstances where doing something the best way also happens to be the most fun way; take a couple of boxes of ammo, some targets, eye and ear protection and go to your local range and have a ball shooting your new pup - or whatever else you have.
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Richard S.... did I read that article correctly in stating that Mobile 1 oil is the oil I should be using for lubrication???? And what type of grease is that? It has never been explained in that great of detail of the proper lubing process. That is some significant lubing. I need some supplies!! LOL
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Yes, Mobile 1 the Synthetic engine oil.
I use to be a cab driver before I became
retired/disabled. The last cab I owned
was a Chevrolet Caprice Classic.
Would you believe I had over 700
thousand miles on the odometer?
It purred like a kitten because I
used Mobile 1. I was going to put
one million miles on it before I
threw it (the car) away. Mobile 1
is the second best Synthetic motor
oil their is. I highly recommend it
for your vehicles.
Apparently its good for PUP's to.
Ok, your wondering what is the
BEST Synthetic motor oil..........
.......Royal Purple.
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Thanks Billib. I should start using it in the 1979 CJ7 I have too. That thing drinks oil like a drunken sailor.
Any advice on the grease?
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I am not an expert but a trusted mechanic very recently told me that using synthetic on a high mileage car that has been using regular oil may cause leaks. This is just FWIW with no scientific basis.
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Sadly, I'm unaware of any Magic Grease.
Lubriplate does make a fine grease, the
link is what I would recommend.
http://www.lubriplate.com/webstore/detail.aspx?ID=17 (http://www.lubriplate.com/webstore/detail.aspx?ID=17)
Use it on your Rails and Trigger Linkage.
That small tube should last you forever.
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Using Synthetic Engine Oil in an Engine that
already leaks will make it leak more efficiently.
Seriously!!!
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My mechanic was referring to a vehicle that had no previous leak history. There is no doubt of the advantages of synthetic oil otherwise. I have heard many good things about Royal Purple and their headquarters is in the Houston area. They also make an excellent gun oil that I purchased on special order from an auto supply store.
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The best way I have heard synthetic oil vs. regular oil described is this:
Fully synthetic, partially synthetic, & regular oil are all real oil. The molecules in regular oil are a wide range of sizes ranging from very small to quite large, partially synthetic oil "filters" out some of the largest molecules leaving only the very small and medium molecules, and in fully synthetic all molecules except the very small have been filtered out. You get much better lubrication with very small consistently sized oil molecules. If your engine has leaks though that happen to be too small for the larger molecules of regular oil to leak out and you fill it with synthetic the synthetic will leak out - so whoever told you that was correct.
I agree with the above Mobile 1 is great oil and what I have always used in my cars since I have known better.
-Ryan
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Richard S.... did I read that article correctly in stating that Mobile 1 oil is the oil I should be using for lubrication???? And what type of grease is that? It has never been explained in that great of detail of the proper lubing process. That is some significant lubing. I need some supplies!! LOL
JT:
I believe that Chris ("R9SCarry"), who wrote the text accompanying the photographs, preferred to use Mobil 1 synthetic motor oil for his firearms. Although I agree with Chris on most things gun related, I do not use motor oil on my firearms. For many years, my preference in gun oil was Ballistol. I now use Frog Lube.
The grease being used by Eric in the photographs is Super Lube.
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I got started using Mobil I on my Auto Mags several years ago as there are a lot of moving parts and they are 35 to 40 years old and the stainless steel used back then was not what we have today. It has worked well on them.
I started using it on some of my other Stainless Auto loaders and liked the way it worked and have continued using it on them
I have used Mobil I quite successfully on my R9. With its simple design it works well.
I tried it on my Boberg which has about 15 to 20 places that require lubrication and it is just too heavy and I got way too much of it in the working parts. The recommended CLP is a much better choice.
I still do not believe that any gun needs this much grease to work or could stay working for very long with it on. See Eric's recommendation below.
http://www.acbsystems.com/boards/rohrbaugh/basefile/r9-lube.htm
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FrogLube is at the top of my list, also.