The Rohrbaugh Forum
Rohrbaugh Products and Accessories => Rohrbaugh Range Reports => Topic started by: Douglas on November 14, 2011, 06:35:42 PM
-
I took the R9S Stealth to the range today and fired the following:
50 rounds of 115g Winchester White Box
20 rounds of 115g Speer Gold Dot
20 rounds of 147g Speer Gold Dot
40 rounds of 147g Federal Hydra Shok
I used two factory magazines, paying no particular attention to which I was using at any given moment. I went in with two loaded, fired them through, then just reloaded and fired as I went.
All shooting was done inside 7 yards, most at about 4 yards. It was a combination of point shooting and aimed, but all quick, including real double tap strings. I shot the heart and face completely out of a couple of thug targets, just two big jagged holes in each. No keyholing.
I had one fail to fire with a 115g Speer Gold Dot; the third round (second in the magazine) out of the holster. Tap, rack, bang (-trained response, it never even occurred to me to pull again until afterwards) and fired through the rest of the magazine. Upon examination the primer was dimpled, but it looked light. I re-magazined that round and it fired normally.
The first two and the remaining 127 rounds fed, fired and extracted without a hitch.
I loaded a couple of mags alternating the 147g Federal with the 115g Speer and the 147g Speer to see if I could tell a difference. I couldn't.
-About recoil: I'll be honest, reading online I expected to be punished. Before going in I thought about putting a band aid on my finger, etc. Ultimately I didn't.
Well if I had never read anything at all I'd be calling it soft recoiling. I almost feel funny saying that, what with how some people talk, but there it is. 130 rounds, no sore finger, no sore hands, no problems at all. I stopped shooting because I was satisfied, there was no more paper in the center of the target and I didn't feel like changing it.
Bottom line: I was surprised and extremely pleased. I'm going to carry the 147g Federal, as that's our issue stuff anyway so it keeps things simple.
At home I cleaned, lubed and replaced the recoil spring (because, why not?) Included is a photo for comparison purposes, new one on the right.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v111/tortoise/R9springs130rdslNewr.jpg)
-
Now that's a great report, Douglas. Thanks!
-
Douglas,
Great range report! I agree I don't find the R9 punishing to shoot at all. In fact it is a dream compared to the Kahr PM 40 I sold shortly after buying the R9.
I have chosen 147gr subsonic hp ammo for carry because I thought it felt better to shoot. I will have to shoot some more of this to confirm this. I do recall it had much less muzzle flash than the 115gr ball ammo did.
I will do another side by side to settle the recoil topic for me.
Enjoy!
Sincerely,
Robar233
-
One more thing I just remembered:
I did need to tighten the right side grip screws when I got home.
There had been no effect on function.
I hadn't even thought about it while I was shooting, but I did notice some loosening of the screws during disassembly and cleaning.
-
I think the finger issue was from one of my posts using a new Covert. I was also using a new curved grip extension and crowded my fingers almost all above it while using a mid-digit straight pull on the trigger...nailed my trigger finger repetitively on the inside and blistered it. By curling the small finger of the shooting hand UNDER the extension and using my usual trigger finger placement the problem disappeared. However, I do now tend to pull low and left if I'm not careful due to the somewhat slanted trigger pull using the longer placement on the trigger (which means at 7 yards I'll put two in the heart, one in the base of the right lung and one in the liver using 2 double taps on a bad-guy target).
-
nice report, she sounds like a keeper...
-
Hey Backup!
Stand by, this is gonna' be a long opinion piece! ;D
Oh you're not the only one by a long shot, and I definitely wasn't thinking of you specifically or singling you out. Not at all. Everyone is an individual, and any specific piece might not work for any specific user. I mean the more generalized internet thing that the R9 is a punishing shooter.
I've been thinking about this quite a bit (over the last eight hours or so) and I have a theory. Please all, consider my disclaimers read: I don't mean to offend anyone, I didn't mean you, etc., etc. ...
I wonder if what is going on, in re: "Rohrbaugh recoil" isn't this:
The R9 is a pistol designed for genuinely concealed carry, ergo it REALLY attracts people seeking genuinely concealed carry. Right off the bat, that almost immediately excludes cops, the primary daily carriers of handguns in America. Cops conceal, but they don't worry about concealment. Plus, cops are cheap.
So I postulate that many of the people really initially interested in the R9 are CCW'ers, and moreover NEW CCW'ers. The old timers have their J's (more on that later) their .25s, their .32s and so on. I knew a couple of guys who carried .22 Mag Derringers as back ups when I got hired. -No old timer, shooting his .380 since "Dr. No" (and I do realize that was a 7.65mm) would find the R9 a hard kicker. Plus, they're cheap!
-No, I think the R9 particularly attracts people seeking or just getting permits to carry a concealed handgun, and therefore people REALLY concerned with concealment.
As new to the game, they often have little experience with handguns. They may be shooters: hunters, "average" military backgrounds (meaning little or no pistol work) etc.... but many simply do not have much experience with a handgun beyond a basic qualification or a general gun "safety" course.
Grip is the number one issue I've seen with small guns in my nearly twenty years of daily pistol carry. When people used to tell me that J frames were hard to shoot, I'd look at them like they were speaking Greek. -I don't speak Greek. Then I watched. Their grips were terrible, especially the "CCW'ers." Presumably no one smacked them in the head while they trained, as was so thoughtfully done for me. ;)
They went out and bought J frames because they were "concealeable" (-and they are) but no one ever taught them how to shoot them properly. Most went by the wayside, buying other larger guns and declaring J frames "inaccurate", leaving the real gunmen on the street killing (or at least convincing) bad guys.
Once the internet dawned, review after review appeared about how difficult J rames were to shoot accurately.
I think maybe we're seeing the same thing with the R9. This gun is a combat caliber pussycat that disappears in your pocket. No wonder Cirillo loved it. 8)
-
Nice review Douglas. I don't think the recoil is that bad either. My problem has to do with the amount of grip I can maintain (or loose). My hands are prone to sweating so the longer I shoot each session, the more I have to adjust my grip between shots. I've found that Yankee's straight extension and checkered grips help but I think I'm going to have to break down and send it in to Bob to have the front & back straps checkered. I'll definitely have him hard chrome my pup while he's at it! ;D
-
A meat and potatoes review Douglas - good stuff, thanks!
I shot my R9 (robar factory edition) for the first time last week. Put 60 rounds thru it without a hitch. For me, the recoil effected my accuracy, but did not make me think "oh shit, this things kicks like a mule". The recoil brought the front of the gun up, making me have to find my target again. My S&W model 27, shooting +P 357 ammo, has muzzle flip as well, but has harsher recoil than the R9 (and that's a big framed 4 inch barreled revolver). My model 27, shooting wadcutter reloads (with a 750 FPS velocity) shoots like my 22 pistol.
With only one outing with the R9, I suspect next time it will be easier, in the sense that I will shoot better. The plan is to shoot 50 rounds every week with my R9, until my accuracy will improve. A weekly schedule of 50 rounds would work better than shooting 200 rounds once a month.
I was very close to getting the 380 version of the Rohrbaugh, because I wanted to place multiple aimed shots on a target, as quick as possible. After my first rainge session, I don't think the aimed and accurate rate of fire between the R9 and R380 would be that much different, especially after 10 or so range sessions with the R9. I was initially afraid that, in a side by side range competition, an experienced R380 shooter would place 6 accurate shots in the same time an experienced R9 shooter place 3 accurate shots.
I wish there was a U-Tube video that showed an experienced hand shooting an R9 - so I could see the way they gripped the gun. Instead, there is a video of an old guy grimmacing after each shot, and two young midwestern guys complaining about the recoil of the R9 - you know these two: "oohh Tad, I would rather shoot a caskil 454" or with two shots left "oohh Tad, do I haave to"? (he was complaining about haveing to shoot the last two rounds)
-
I've seen both of those! They are exactly what I had in mind when I talked about people overstating the recoil.
As to grip, I have always been taught, revolvers and pistols, to get as high on the backstrap as possible. Many people grip way to low and it lets the gun lever up in their hand when fired.
You don't see it much anymore, but it used to be common for the revolver guys to get cut by the recoiling slide during semiauto transition training because they would cross their thumbs high up on the backstrap out of habit and training. Not something you want to do with a pistol, but principle is still sound.
-
Hey Douglas I have a question for you. What serial number Stealth do you have or what range serail number? That open end spring in your picture is the old orginal design and im just curious as to what era that gun is from.
Thanks
-
It's Deer Park R1819, got it from a buddy who bought it new IIRC around '08-ish??
The new spring in the pic is a recent order from the factory.
-
Douglas - I agree with your assessment on recoil.
Another way I look at it is, Shooters don't have a problem with the recoil. By "Shooters" I mean people who go out and shoot often and a lot of ammo. Not the one who shoots once or twice a year. Now a " Shooter" can be one who grew up shooting like a house on fire, but does not have the time to now, but still has the right fundamentals ingrained in thier muscle memory.
In my mind, just because you own a gun, that does not make you a "Shooter".
And that is not a put down. One has to learn, train and practice like most of us did. And it is a fun road.
-
Hey Douglas,
Excellent commentary and correct in all aspects. My issue began when I sold my "plain Jane" R9 in a moment of stupidity (it basically never felt like it had much recoil compared to most of my other pistols/revolvers). I bought a new Covert, put my new curved grip extension on it and changed my grip. I have relatively small hands and tried to move the small finger up on the extension while experimenting with a straight trigger pull using the tip of the finger....didn't work for me! I've come to love the curved extension, but now curl the small finger under it. I've also told John that I want one of his straight black extensions when he's back in production.
Regards to all,
John
-
Reinz, you stated that very well...big difference in a gun owner and a shooter....I've known Shooters who don't even own their own gun and I've known gun owners who are far from being Shooters....being called a Shooter in the world I grew up in is a Top Shelf compliment....
In my mind, just because you own a gun, that does not make you a "Shooter".
-
Toad - given your posts, I'm certain that you are a "Shooter" for sure and that you take it seriously. And having a very broad idea of your vocation, I am very glad that you do take your shooting seriously. 8)
-
In a recent issue of American Handgunner magazine, Roy Huntington reported on a word that his wife had coined to describe a Shooter. The word is "Gunist."
I like it.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_1_37/ai_n58471500/
Reinz and AT, you both undoubtedly qualify as Shooters and Gunists.
-
Richard, I read that article just the other day. About how it would be difficult for a non-gunist to run a gun business. Good stuff.
-
It seems that we have more than just a few gunistical pup owners on the forum.
-
...a word that his wife had coined to describe a Shooter. The word is "Gunist."
See now... I would have gone with, "Shootist."
-But there are only about a million reasons, some personal and some otherwise. 8)
-
"Shooter" works for me. That also happens to be the moniker of the catapult and arresting gear officer on an aircraft carrier--a very demanding, difficult, and challenging position.
-
"Shooter" works for me. That also happens to be the moniker of the catapult and arresting gear officer on an aircraft carrier--a very demanding, difficult, and challenging position.
I can only imagine what it must be to experience a catapult launch from 0 to 165 mph in 2 seconds!
-
The high "g" force and acceleration during a catapult stroke is most welcome, especially on a black night.
-
In a recent issue of American Handgunner magazine, Roy Huntington reported on a word that his wife had coined to describe a Shooter. The word is "Gunist."
I like it.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_1_37/ai_n58471500/
Reinz and AT, you both undoubtedly qualify as Shooters and Gunists.
I am behind in my reading. I have the latest Ameriacan HG and a few others stacked up unread in the corner.
-
Man that has GoT to be a RUSH!
Would love to do it.
I can only imagine what it must be to experience a catapult launch from 0 to 165 mph in 2 seconds!
-
I wish there was a U-Tube video that showed an experienced hand shooting an R9 - so I could see the way they gripped the gun. Instead, there is a video of an old guy grimmacing after each shot, and two young midwestern guys complaining about the recoil of the R9 - you know these two: "oohh Tad, I would rather shoot a caskil 454" or with two shots left "oohh Tad, do I haave to"? (he was complaining about having to shoot the last two rounds)
I remember seeing those two videos as well - they actually gave me an (unnecessary) pause about buying an R9 at first. But then I also found this video of Karl shooting the R9 - I think Karl knows how to shoot it pretty durn well!
http://www.thingameez.com/vid-download/r9-karl-demo.wmv (http://www.thingameez.com/vid-download/r9-karl-demo.wmv)
Candidly I sort of enjoy giving my R9 to a friend or shooting buddy just to watch their reaction - which almost invariably ends up less like Karl and more like those two videos you reference. I think this supports what Douglas posted - that many people aren't really shooters and the R9 performs for those who are (and penalizes those who are not - at least a little bit).
-
The R9 is for experienced shooters. That said, anyone can learn to shoot it well (7 yards) with practice.
-
I wish there was a U-Tube video that showed an experienced hand shooting an R9 - so I could see the way they gripped the gun. Instead, there is a video of an old guy grimmacing after each shot, and two young midwestern guys complaining about the recoil of the R9 - you know these two: "oohh Tad, I would rather shoot a caskil 454" or with two shots left "oohh Tad, do I haave to"? (he was complaining about having to shoot the last two rounds)
I remember seeing those two videos as well - they actually gave me an (unnecessary) pause about buying an R9 at first. But then I also found this video of Karl shooting the R9 - I think Karl knows how to shoot it pretty durn well!
http://www.thingameez.com/vid-download/r9-karl-demo.wmv (http://www.thingameez.com/vid-download/r9-karl-demo.wmv)
Candidly I sort of enjoy giving my R9 to a friend or shooting buddy just to watch their reaction - which almost invariably ends up less like Karl and more like those two videos you reference. I think this supports what Douglas posted - that many people aren't really shooters and the R9 performs for those who are (and penalizes those who are not - at least a little bit).
The Karl video is a good one. Illustrative.
To be clear: It's my view that an "experienced" shooter can be recoil sensitive. I mean, why not? One might just "not prefer" a heavy recoiling pistol. The difference would be that from your experience you would know your own preferences.
My take is that the R9 might surprise inexperienced hands. I mean, people blast away on TV and in the movies, full-auto, one hand, etc. If that is one's frame of reference, lighting off a full-house 9mm in a 13 oz. pistol might be eye-opening. :o
An experienced shooter will be much less likely to be surprised. He will, in ballpark terms at least, know what to expect. Now, even an experienced shooter might then decide: "This is not for me, there's too much recoil." but I don't think you'd see the melodramatic exclamations from that shooter that we see in the confounding videos.
-AND... it is my opinion that the R9 just does not fall into that recoil category for nearly anyone. Based on my experience, I think those videos are largely some combination of inexperience and affectation. Mostly the latter. -Gun goes off and shooter says, "WHOOOOAAAAAAAA!!!" because it's fun to say. Out of all proportion. Some people do it when they smell something unpleasant; you know the type. -Same thing.
I've fired some big game calibre handguns, and handed them back to their owners with a, "Thank you. That's not one I'm going to need." I was never surprised that Newton's laws applied however. :)