The Rohrbaugh Forum
Rohrbaugh Products and Accessories => Rohrbaugh R9 (all variations) => Topic started by: coyote on July 09, 2011, 03:36:04 PM
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a buddy just showed up with his R9, asking for assistance in cleaning it for the first time.
after cleaning it, we compared his barrel to mine.
something didn't look right to me.
below is a photo of both, his on the left.
his barrel has what appears to be an overly rough bore, possibly machining "chatter" marks, about halfway down, on each of the lands.
is this acceptable quality?
(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f173/oregoncoyote/R9-barrels.jpg)
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That does not look right to me. I would send it back in a heartbeat. I have looked down a lot of bores and never seen one that looked like that. It appears something went wrong during the machining of that bore. I am sure Rohrbaugh will replace it if it left the factory like that. :(
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It's a "problem" that has been around for a while. Rohrbaugh does not see it as a problem as long as the gun functions.
http://www.rohrbaughforum.com/YaBB.cgi?board=Cleaning;action=display;num=1232376491;start=0
I have owned quite a few early R9's and a couple newer models and none of them had the barrel chatter marks.
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For the price that we pay for one of these firearms, that barrel should never have left the factory. Yes, the gun will function and the bullet will exit the barrel. But when you are dropping a minimum of a grand on a pistol, an imperfection a gross as that should not be tolerated.
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Welcome to Rohrbaugh. I have had two of them and they both look like your friend's. Eric sys that is the best they can do. Get pissed and they will buy it back. Why would we pay $1200.00 for this is beyond me.
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Please note the cutaway photo of the broach cut rifling in the following link; it looks similar to your pictures.
http://firearmsid.com/A_bulletIDrifling.htm
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coyote. Ask your buddy, if he is dissatisfied, to call Rohrbaugh and let them know his feelings and go from there.
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This general issue has already been brought to Rohrbaugh's attention and denied as a problem.
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MRC was told the same thing and they bought his back; so it's worth the call.
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Denial and buying back the product does not fix the problem nor does it boost confidence in future or used purchases.
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I have to ask the question. Why can't the barrel just be replaced? Why buy back the pistol? You can order a barrel from Sig or Smith. Does Rohrbaugh have a policy that they don't sell or replace barrels?
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Denial and buying back the product does not fix the problem nor does it boost confidence in future or used purchases.
We're talking about an individual and his dissatisfaction, if that's the case, and buying it back may satisfy him.
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I have to ask the question. Why can't the barrel just be replaced? Why buy back the pistol? You can order a barrel from Sig or Smith. Does Rohrbaugh have a policy that they don't sell or replace barrels?
I've thought the same thing, and don't know why that wasn't done.
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No, we are talking about a flaw in the product.
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He's asking for input, tracker, on what to do. :) Well, maybe not. It does look like a flaw.
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Dissatisfaction is a part of the problem and yes buying it back may solve that. However that fact that Rohrbaugh allows this to happen, is not acceptable. That barrel should not have left the factory period. I have never seen any other pistol with marks like that.
You could argue that that for close up a "pocket pistol" could be smooth bore and it would still function and work as intended. That does not mean it is quality workmanship. For the price of this pistol the the bore should not look this way.
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I do agree, however, this is something that has to be taken up with Rohrbaugh on an individual basis; the barrel shouldn't have left the factory that way, in my opinion, yours, and others.
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I sent pictures to Maria asking for the barrel to be replaced. Eric looked at them and had Maria tell me that is common with their " Old World Broached Rifling Method" and if the gun functions, why would I care what it looked like. The gun did not function and I asked to speak to Eric. Maria asked what I paid for the pistol and when I told her she said she would buy it back. I jumped at the offer. Never did they admit that the barrel was defective or offer to replace it.
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Spare me from the "old world broached rifling method" explanation. As some one told me a long time ago if you think it is a problem it is a problem. Some here would not criticize an R9 if it blew up in their face; they would simply say: "call the factory."
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All I am doing is quoting what I was told and I thought it was a stupid answer to give to a customer. I know it pissed me off.
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Spare me from the "old world broached rifling method" explanation. As some one told me a long time ago if you think it is a problem it is a problem. Some here would not criticize an R9 if it blew up in their face; they would simply say: "call the factory."
tracker. Does it help to criticize the R9 individually? Calling the factory is the only way to get help or one's own satisfaction. :)
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This is more than a one-off event and should be addressed as such other than a denial. Owners have called the factory and it has been swept under the rug, apart from the buy-back which has a dismissive characteristic of its own.
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This is more than a one-off event and should be addressed as such other than a denial. Owners have called the factory and it has been swept under the rug, apart from the buy-back which has a dismissive characteristic of its own.
So because you're saying the above, is going to fix the problem?
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No, but drinking the kool-aid doesn't either. Recognition of a problem is the first step in a solution; that hasn't occurred yet.
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No, but drinking the kool-aid doesn't either. Recognition of a problem is the first step in a solution; that hasn't occurred yet.
How do you propose to make that happen?
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Call the factory.
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Call the factory.
You've got it! ;D
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Call the factory.
;)
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thnx guys.
my buddy has read your replies and we agree: although there is no functional problem here, it's very disturbing to pay over a thousand dollars for a high-end firearm just to get poor quality like this.
he will call maria this week and send her the photo.
we'll post the result here too...
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Eric saw the pictures when I asked for a new barrel on warranty and had Maria tell me that all their barrels looked like that and if the gun functions, it is not a problem in their opinion. Is this a common problem or did it just occur in guns in the early 4000's? Does anyone else have this problem?
Man! I've got to stop visiting here. I just read this thread and the previous one linked by Cory (partially quoted above.)
This caused me to carefully inspect my barrel and it has heavy "tool marks" on the lands it's entire length. >:( Now I'm really bummed out. (I was happy as a clam with my R9s before reading this thread. It just goes to illustrate the point I suppose, that ignorance is indeed bliss. :(
BYW mine was purchased new, 32xx serial number and has been pretty much a "safe-queen" with only a total of 50 rounds through it, a combination of Speer Gold Dot and WWB.
It's been 100% perfect with those. Never a hiccup. So, while I'm not happy about the crappy finishing of the rifling I suppose that I'll just live with it.
But, I agree with Tracker and others. This is a problem and should be corrected. There's obviously a problem with their rifling process. I've never seen this on any other barrel. They should be smooth, polished and shiny.
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My pup functions fine so I aint gonna even look!
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My pup functions fine so I aint gonna even look!
My feelings exactly. ;D ;D
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My pup functions fine so I aint gonna even look!
My bore isn't pretty.
But there are no signs of excess pressure on the fired brass, the velocity is correct for a 3" barrel and my R9 is extraordinarily accurate.
However, that is one pistol. If your bore seems rough you should check your brass for signs of overpressure.
I am not trying to dismiss this issue, nor am I trying to overstate it. I am saying that you should take just a moment and see if there is a concern.
I will not consider replacing my barrel, though the bore is a bit rough looking (tooling marks), because the pistol works very well as it is, and it is exceedingly accurate. But that would be a different story if I was having issues that could be related to the bore.
1.) Operates safely
2.) Operates reliably
3.) Operates accurately
Those should be priorities for any firearm.
There is nothing wrong with beautiful, but putting form over function is, IMHO, a mistake. YMMV.
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I am on my second R9 as the first went back. I say the bore is rough, Relic described it as Butt-Ugly.
I have had the pistol since March and have about 150 rounds through it. It has been 100% reliable with the 4 brands of ammo I have tried plus the practice reloads I use in my PM9. I am completely confident in this pistol. I have been carrying it nearly every day for 2.5 months. I stopped at the range a week ago and fired the 7 rounds I had been carrying plus an extra mag. No problems.
This is a good gun and as easy to carry as my P380 Kahr. It is not as accurate as my PM9 but that might just be me or the better Kahr sights. The rough barrel bothers me but I already know Rohrbaugh's stance on that so I am keeping the gun and living with it. I shot 100 rounds through my PM9 and it took me 10 minutes to clean the bore. I put 30 through the R9 and spent 30 minutes cleaning it.
I really can't figure out why Rohrbaugh continues to use these barrels but I guess that's between them and the buyers. I am keeping mine for now.
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I am on my second R9 as the first went back. I say the bore is rough, Relic described it as Butt-Ugly.
'Tis true. I saw pictures of MRC's first barrel. "Butt ugly" is a direct quote from me
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I am on my second R9 as the first went back. I say the bore is rough, Relic described it as Butt-Ugly.
I have had the pistol since March and have about 150 rounds through it. It has been 100% reliable with the 4 brands of ammo I have tried plus the practice reloads I use in my PM9. I am completely confident in this pistol. I have been carrying it nearly every day for 2.5 months. I stopped at the range a week ago and fired the 7 rounds I had been carrying plus an extra mag. No problems.
This is a good gun and as easy to carry as my P380 Kahr. It is not as accurate as my PM9 but that might just be me or the better Kahr sights. The rough barrel bothers me but I already know Rohrbaugh's stance on that so I am keeping the gun and living with it. I shot 100 rounds through my PM9 and it took me 10 minutes to clean the bore. I put 30 through the R9 and spent 30 minutes cleaning it.
I really can't figure out why Rohrbaugh continues to use these barrels but I guess that's between them and the buyers. I am keeping mine for now.
MRC. Glad the R9 is performing well.
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Yes KJ, this is a good gun. I have always prefered "striker fired" pistols because the triggers are usually too heavy on DAO hammer fired. Not with this Rohrbaugh. It is as smooth and light as any striker fired and I have had no light hits yet. I have carried a Colt Pony and a Pocket Nine and both were good guns with awful triggers. I looked into trigger jobs, but no Gunsmith would touch them as they knew I carried.
I don't like the barrel, the heel mag latch, or the ridiculously small grip screws, but it seems Rohrbaugh is not going to do anything about it.
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Man I can not believe this thread.
Where is it written that a barrel has to be shiney as a Marine's buttons at inspection ?
Has anyone thought by chance, that maybe, just maybe those rough marks may by accident "grip" and "bite down" on the bullet and actually HELP stabilze the bullet BETTER before and/or as it leaves the barrel ? Especially being a short barrel, that IS pretty important.
Now the Crown has to be mar-free, that can throw things off.
We have all read exempleary range reports on the incredible accracy of these little guns. Pretty amazing huh? So what if my barrel is not a purdy as my Smith or Colt - I can shoot it just about as good!
BFD
Talk to some competitive shooters. Some have to shoot every few shots with a perfectly clean bore. Others have to have a fouled bore. There are no absolutes.
Some of you guys need to put your Big Boy Pants on.
Sorry for the rant, I have 3 R9's, none have shiney bores- but all three will eat anything and hit what I am aiming at.
To me THAT is important.
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Has anyone thought by chance, that maybe, just maybe those rough marks may by accident "grip" and "bite down" on the bullet and actually HELP stabilze the bullet BETTER before and/or as it leaves the barrel ?
. ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)
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. ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)
I agree.
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Based on what ?
It doesn't look purdy?
My daddy taught me that the bore should be shiney?
and his daddy taught him that the bore should be shiney?
A gun writer said that the bore should be shiney?
;D
Come on, let's discuss it.
Cough something up, just don't give me the rolly eyes.
What a cop out. You guys are the ones whining.
I am willing to learn something. I'm not saying I am right. I just posed a theory - like half of gun ballistics out there already - just theories.
I'm just saying my R9's shoot darn good and who the heck is going to see the inside of the bore but me. What difference does it make?
It WORKS GREAT!
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I don't have a dog in this fight but no one said it is about accuracy; it is just simply quality control and any owner has the right to question manufacturing inconsistency. See the below link on reaming.
http://www.lasc.us/RangingShotBarrelMakingFeature.htm
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This says it all! ;D
(http://s575.photobucket.com/albums/ss197/kjtrains/Funnyoldladycl2.gif)
So, don't worry! :)
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There is no need to worry now. Five or ten years from now those horizontal chatter marks will have collected some ammo fodder detritus that the normal barrel cleaning process will not remove. This can result in barrel corrosion and accuracy will be the least of the concerns.
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You do make some good points.
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Thank you. The question is, would you buy a gun knowing that those barrel flaws are present? I would not.
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I'm with you there.
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I agree
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10-4
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Roger that....but many have them so whats the next move ??
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I'm keeping mine. The gun is made to carry and not shoot very often anyway. To me it is a "light carry, or backup gun" anyway. I have other firearms if I really think things could get serious.
I just hope that Rohrbaugh takes notice.
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I don't have a dog in this fight but no one said it is about accuracy; it is just simply quality control and any owner has the right to question manufacturing inconsistency. See the below link on reaming.
http://www.lasc.us/RangingShotBarrelMakingFeature.htm
Good Info
I am not trying to fight.
I am just saying that I can not believe this attitude of "the sky is falling".
One minute everyone is in love with their guns and one or two guys show some cosmetic flaw and next thing we have a freak out! And now the factory has a rash of calls.
Has anyone done any testing before demanding that these are "bad" barrels?
It's simple: just get a third party shooter and don't tell him what the test is. Put a pie plate 15-21 feet downrange.
Compare groups from a "bad" gun vs a "good" gun.
If there is some evidence, then maybe I would go along with the guys that are upset.
But since these are Belly guns and most gunfights are from 4-7 feet and we practice from 15-21 feet, I am not convinced that those rough marks make a hill of beans on This gun.
Now one thing that I could understand getting upset about, that everyone drank the kool-aid on was the aluminum shaving issue a few years back.
A few years back some guys reported metal shavings inside their frame after a few hundred rounds. Then it came to be expected, just like changing out your recoil spring.
We were told that our guns were just "settling in".
Everyone accepted it and went on.
Great factory spin! Really, no one considered that maybe the frames had improper heat treatmemt and were glazed. And the the glaze was shaving off over time?
Gee, my Colt aluminum frame guns never did this, nor my Springfields, Smiths, or Kimbers. Why would my more hi-tech, more expensive Rohrbaugh do it?
Now maybe That is more wothwhile to get upset about, then a few cosmetic marks in the barrel of a belly gun.
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Thank you. The question is, would you buy a gun knowing that those barrel flaws are present? I would not.
The advantage of buying your next R9 in person FTF - bring your bore light!
This can be a double edge sword for dealers selling new guns.
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I have learned that lesson very well; the bore light goes with me to gun shows and gun shops or wherever else they are sold.
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Great idea!
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I don't know if my barrel is perfect or Butt Ugly because I have never looked that closely and have no plans to. If I were purchasing a new gun and were inspecting it before the purchase and by chance saw the barrel issues it may be a factor in the price I was willing to pay.
Being that my pup eats anything I put in it and not a single issue with it I am totally happy and wouldn't change a thing.
If at some point in time it's determined the rough barrels could cause a failure or the risk of injury that would be another story.
Don't Worry Be Happy. ;D
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Higher standards other than failure or the risk of injury should apply to this gun. If a compromise of quality is acceptable in the case of barrels what is next?
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my friend with the problem barrel is here and he wishes to share his thoughts, so i'm handing the laptop over to him:
Hey All...
My buddy coyote started this thread for me and I want to thank you all for your views and advice.
Yes, the gun functions. No, I don't want Karl/Eric to buy mine back because there really isn't anything else out there with which to replace my R9s.
The conclusion I have come to is that I am stuck with an R9s that is obviously a “second”. I would not find this low level of quality control acceptable on a gun worth a fraction of the cost of an R9.
I just find it totally incomprehensible and mind boggling that Karl/Eric actually do find it acceptable.
- TJ Sparks[/i]
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Coyote & TJ,
I agree with you about the quality issue and stated so earlier. I don't think I got an answer to the question as to why not just replace or buy an new barrel. I would not want to go through the hassle of having to replace the entire gun. Won't Rohrbaugh sell replacement like other companies do everything except the frame? My pup has been shot three times and cleaned four times. I did not recall seeing these marks before. I just peeked and she is bright and shinny all the way down.
Maybe Rohrhaugh should change to polygonal riffling like H&K and Kahr?
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Coyote & TJ
Did you call and send them the pictures? If you did, I am curious as to their response.
I think to replace the barrel on a R9 it would have to go back to the factory to be fitted because of the way they are made.
I asked for a replacement and they said this was typical of their barrels and they saw no problems. It is hard to get mad at Maria as she was just relaying messages from Eric, so I asked to speak to him and she just offered to buy it back. I really wanted to get rid of the gun at that point so I jumped at the offer. I hope things work out for you.
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Now maybe That is more wothwhile to get upset about, then a few cosmetic marks in the barrel of a belly gun.
My sentiments exactly!!
I understand peoples issues with quality control and paying top dollar for a barrel that has “chatter.” I think the bottom line is missed that this is the smallest pocket 9mm gun currently made. Designed as back up carry gun to “carry and not shoot very often.”
My daily carry has CF grips and typical carry ware, the guns functions and is reliable. The barrel “chatter” it’s a non-issue at the distances for what the gun was designed for.
I mean no offence by this but the “chatter” is irrelevant in the designed function the gun serves for me. That function is a back pocket carry gun, no other production 9mm is as concealable. Bottom Line
Mike
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This caused me to carefully inspect my barrel and it has heavy "tool marks" on the lands it's entire length. I was happy as a clam with my R9s before reading this thread. It just goes to illustrate the point I suppose, that ignorance is indeed bliss.
BYW mine was purchased new, has been 100% perfect with those. Never a hiccup. So, while I'm not happy about the crappy finishing of the rifling I suppose that I'll just live with it. But, I agree with Tracker and others. This is a problem and should be corrected.
Sorry, since I seemed to have restirred this pot again with my rolling eyes, allow me to expound as to the cause of their rolling.
First, I have quoted excerpts from my original post. They include that my pistol DOES function well and that I intend to keep it but that Rohrbaugh should be looking at ways to improve their rifling.
Has anyone thought by chance, that maybe, just maybe those rough marks may by accident "grip" and "bite down" on the bullet and actually HELP stabilze the bullet BETTER before and/or as it leaves the barrel ? Especially being a short barrel, that IS pretty important.
Now the Crown has to be mar-free, that can throw things off.
We have all read exempleary range reports on the incredible accracy of these little guns. Pretty amazing huh? So what if my barrel is not a purdy as my Smith or Colt - I can shoot it just about as good! BFD.
Now a partial quote from a fellow forum member to which I respond:
What bothers me about some of the posts in this thread that simply extolling the virtues of the pistol, and dismiss the tooling marks, and there are many, is the inability to concede that as much as you love and support the product, it does have a problem. The problem may not bother you and that's fine. I respect that. If you're 100% pleased and willing to accept some "flaws", I'm good with it.
However, (you knew there was a "however" coming didn't you? ;D ) IMO to simply blindly follow and support a product or a person, as much as you like and admire it, or them, without some independent thinking and critical analysis and willingness to "see" and accept "facts" at face value is, akin to me, as Drinking the Koolaid. In terms of products, (and people) many, many examples come to mind. Oh how I remember the old, hard core GM, Chrysler and Ford advocates back in the early 70's. ;D ;D ;D
So, while I don't disagree with those of you saying "Get over it. It's a great gun" I agree more with those who are saying, "For the kind of money that these pistols sell for, this problem should be studied and resolved"
Also, if, as has been suggested, there's any testing that should be done it should be by the manufacturer and the onus of posting proof, that there is NO potential negative effects that will result from the tool marks in the rifling, should be theirs. Not the consumers.
Just my $0.02 worth. YMMV ;)
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Quiet1,
Well said. I am willing to bet this "problem" will be resolved at the factory in time.
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Also, if, as has been suggested, there's any testing that should be done it should be by the manufacturer and the onus of posting proof, that there is NO potential negative effects that will result from the tool marks in the rifling, should be theirs. Not the consumers.
Just my $0.02 worth. YMMV ;)
I respectfully ask you, would you believe the manufactuer if they came out and said they tested the "bad" barrels and said they are Ok ? ???
They have actually already made a statement saying that the marks don't hurt anything. :P
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What problems would you think tool marks in the rifling woud cause?
The guns are very accurate. Do we need more accuracy from a pocket gun with minimal sights?
It seems at best this is a cosmetic issue. But, its hard for me even to call this a cosmetic issue since you have to disassemble the gun and use a bore light to make out the marks.
I think we are stretching things a bit to call this a workmanship issue. There is more workmanship in this gun than most anything you will find at this price. Do you guys inspect the inside of the grip panels for small scratches too?
Customers are paying a higher than average price for the R-9 and getting a much better than average product in my opinion. No one says the guns are perfect or beyond reproach in any way. Quality and price are always a trade off. Karl would like to make guns that are even higher quality, but the market is too limited. Despite what you may think the margins are on these guns, I can assure you no one is getting rich making R-9s.
For those who never noticed this issue or cared until it was pointed out to them, I would say -- who cares? For those who haven't yet taken delivery, I would say look at the barrel before you accept the gun if it's important to you.
I won't call it a "problem" - but that is just me.
Update: I spoke with Eric. The factory is aware of this, and they are still looking into it. This is cosmetic at best, and does not affect safety or function in any way. When there is more information, I will pass it along.
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Duane,
Thanks for the first hand info.
I have never done a bore inspection on either of my pups and agree with you that it is cosmetic and as long as there are no safety issues I don't care.
I can also understand the concerns about how it should look and hopefully there will be a resolution to the issue in the near future, weather it will please those who are concerned is another story.
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I am with tracker on this issue. Duane's comments notwithstanding, I could care less whether this is regarded as "cosmetic' coming out of the factory as it augers towards the possibility of additional negativity down the road.
Further, I am not comfortable with the "buy back" policy of the factory as that clearly suggests a posture unwilling to deal with root cause. If this is such a non-issue, as suggested by some on this string, why is the factory buying back the guns?
If this problem were associated with a Kel-Tec my response would be "what do you expect?" However, from an R9, I would be unhappy were this to happen to me.
"Looking for trouble" is not difficult; it will find you every time. That is not what this is about; at least for me. We share a great deal of praise for our beloved R9 on these pages. This is not a time for our praise to morph into scorn. It is a time, however, to ask the factory to do a better job, categorically, as it relates to this matter.
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I guess our opinions can vary about whether this is really an issue or not.
Let me say the factory does not have a "buy back" policy. I think they may have bought back two guns ever.
I think it is commendable that they will step up and buy back a gun when they know that they won't otherwise be able to make the the customer happy. They would rather take a big loss on the gun than have a dissatisfied customer when nothing else will work. Once they buy back a gun, it cannot be resold as new.
My understanding is that they haven't been able to address this issue easily or quickly. You can't just run out to Wal-Mart and buy a new barrel reamer, assuming you could afford it. And, you can't hand polish tool marks out of a rifled barrel. So -- there is no easy fix.
That being said, they are working on it. I will let you know when there is more definitive information. No one cares more about the quality of these guns than the guys with their names on the slide--of that, I have no doubt.
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I think I have read a quite a bit more buy backs than two.
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I think I have read a quite a bit more buy backs than two.
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All,
This thread has taken on a life of its own. This is the only forum that I read on a regular basis and is the only one I belong to. I think the back and forth on this topic is the true purpose of a forum. We have shared our opinions of a topic we all clearly care a great deal about.
The R9 is a outstanding pistol. The form and function of this "pocket pistol" are its greatest virtues. I hope you all enjoy your pistols as much as I enjoy mine. Hopefully it will be your DCW too and you only have to shot it at the range!
Robar233
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I disagree with the statement that this is strictly cosmetic and liken it to machine marks on the frame and hidden by the grip panels. The barrel is a working part of the gun. As an engineer, I think about the bullet being pushed down the barrel by expanding gases and high pressures and what these "tool marks" are doing to this process.
In my opinion a better comparison is a scratched cyllinder wall in my car engine.
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I'm not saying the machine marks should be there or are acceptable. For a weapon designed for use at about ten feet or less they will have zero effect on anything important (accuracy, ballistics, bullet expansion) at it's intended use distance.
If this were a target rifle and being used for six hundred yard bullseye shooting it would be a whole different story.
I think if you were to do some chronograph testing at ten feet with a perfect barrel and the worst R9 barrel thats being talked about the difference would be no more than the standard deviation from perfect barrel to perfect barrel.
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I disagree with the statement that this is strictly cosmetic and liken it to machine marks on the frame and hidden by the grip panels. The barrel is a working part of the gun. As an engineer, I think about the bullet being pushed down the barrel by expanding gases and high pressures and what these "tool marks" are doing to this process.
In my opinion a better comparison is a scratched cyllinder wall in my car engine.
A scratched cylinder wall in your engine would destroy the rings and ruin performance. R9s work just fine with funky barrels. After reading all this I checked my barrel. I did not see any noticeable tool marks and feel somehow deprived.
Rick
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Rick,
Maybe someone would be willing to trade you barrels. ;D
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Attention Seecamp Owners:
Please share with us the number of times your Seecamp has shipped from Milford with a barrel, (or any other defect), in which the factory 1). Attempted to buy back the gun or 2). Proclaimed the problem as moot.
Hey!; it's just a pocket gun and this doesn't matter, right?
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Rick,
Maybe someone would be willing to trade you barrels. ;D
;D
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Like I stated before the tooling marks shouldn't be there and needs to be addressed by the factory because it is a problem. But if the factory said there looking into it we'll have to take them at there word and until we have there final decision we can live with what we have or sell it and get something with no tooling marks.
For me until someone can produce data that indicates it adversely effects the performance of the bullet at self defense distances or has caused a catastrophic failure, it doesn't matter (to me) and is purely cosmetic.
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i agree ACP
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Attention Seecamp Owners:
Please share with us the number of times your Seecamp has shipped from Milford with a barrel, (or any other defect), in which the factory 1). Attempted to buy back the gun or 2). Proclaimed the problem as moot.
Hey!; it's just a pocket gun and this doesn't matter, right?
Well, to get back on topic and actually give a responsive answer, for me, the answer would be zero times. They did work on two of my guns, with one being 20 years old, and they did a superb job on both. On the newer one, they replaced it for a different problem that they noticed that i never complained about. They fixed my issue, which was the hammer strut pin that walked out of place, and then they noticed some other reason that the gun was out of spec., so they just sent me a brand new gun. On my older .32 , they replaced a cracked slide and even sent me two new magazines to go with the gun, since the mag. style changed over 20 years. All at no charge. They are truly awesome and customer satisfaction is apparently their number one priority. I must say though, that each gun took over a year to get back, but i believe that had to do with the ammo shortage of 2009.
Although I would also say that it would almost seem that there is more to your question than meets the eye.
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Rick,
Maybe someone would be willing to trade you barrels. ;D
Tempting, but no. I'm just going to put on my big boy pants and deal with it. :D
Rick
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Over a year to get back. (http://i413.photobucket.com/albums/pp216/yankee2500/shocked.gif) WOW
How happy would all the owners with tooling marks be if they sent there R9s in and had to wait over a year to get them back. ???
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To address a few common themes:
I don't think it's fair to say the factory is dismissive of this issue or sweeps it under the rug. They have said this is not unusual and is a product of their rifling method. Sounds to me like they can't necessarily replace your barrel with a perfect one at this point.
So why is it dismissive or underhanded to buy back the gun? They have a customer who is unhappy and they can't fix the problem for them. So now they offer to buy back a gun and take a several hundred dollar loss just to keep the customer happy. What more could they possibly do? How many other gun companies have EVER paid cash to buy back a gun? There may be some, but I am not aware of them. I think it's unbelievably good customer service. They could just tell you the gun is to spec and there is nothing they can do. But, they would rather take the loss than have the unhappy customer.
If the factory is guilty of anything, it is not understanding just how big an issue this is to a small group of their customers. That being said, they have promised to address this issue and will let me know what they are doing.
As I take a deep breath, I would just say the following--as I have in the past. Eric and Karl are friends of mine. They care deeply about their products and their customers. I would appreciate everyone treating them fairly and not disparaging the integrity of the company over this issue.
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Well said, Duane, and I am backing out of this issue. Selling out? No. But I am, after all, an R9 partisan and it is fair minded to allow the factory to properly address this issue.
As I write this my cherished Robar R9 is at the factory being repaired due to my slide having "frozen" following a recent problem encountered at the range this past week. Maria, as is well documented in these pages, is the best in the business.
The root cause of the barrel issue bothers me but it is senseless to overlook the well documented customer service that mitigates this concern.
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And now that i reread the original post, it would seem like you are almost complaining that the company bought the gun back. That is pretty good service in my opinion. You are free then to either buy another brand, or look down the barrel of the next R9 you buy to check it first. The buyback seems to be the best solution if the factory is not equipped to have the tooling available to ensure that their barrels don't leave the factory in a certain aesthetic condition.
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For what it's worth, I don't think the factory can buy back the guns of anyone who decides now they don't like the tool marks...lest they go out of business entirely. So...I would temper any expectations of that going forward.
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For what it's worth, I don't think the factory can buy back the guns of anyone who decides now they don't like the tool marks...lest they go out of business entirely. So...I would temper any expectations of that going forward.
yeah, i meant the best solution in his case. it is clearly unfeasible to expect the company to buy back every gun as a matter of policy.
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after looking at the photos in the first post, it occurred to me that for the intended purpose and range of these guns, they could have smooth bores, thereby avoiding the chatter issue, and i would still buy one.
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I've been watching this thread with some interest and have now decided to add my two cents worth.
First, I should state that the lands and grooves in the barrel of my Farmingdale R9 are as shiny as polished glass. If there were any tool marks in the barrel when I took delivery of the pistol in May 2004, I didn't see them, and I use a bore light whenever I clean the gun. If there were originally any tool marks that I overlooked, they must have been removed by the process of "shooting/cleaning/shooting/cleaning, etc., etc.
Second, I agree with Duane that this is a cosmetic issue. He has stated that the factory is aware of the matter and is looking into it. Even internal cosmetic issues are important to Rohrbaugh.
Third, I suggest that there is a simple and inexpensive DIY solution out there for anyone who perceives any tool marks in the barrel of his R9 -- one that is used by some of the top-tier shooters in preparing their firearms for competitition. Here is a link to the product:
http://www.davidtubb.com/ff-kit-38-9mm-cal
And here is some additional reading on the subject from the product's web site:
[size=10]Superior Shooting Systems Inc. FinalFinish Bore Conditioning System represents a significant advancement in the enhancement of firearm performance. It's a better barrel in a box!
FinalFinish is an easy, do-it-yourself process that will give the barrel on your firearm a more uniform and polished bore. This will allow you to increase velocity, reduce fouling, make cleaning easier, and, most importantly, the successive application of the five different FinalFinish compounds will improve the quality of the barrel.
* * *
When any barrel is made -- custom or production -- it first has to be drilled. As with any cutting tool, the drill leaves behind its signature: tool marks. Tool marks are blemishes that remain in the metal surface as the result of disruption to the metal. The rifling process then adds more tool marks and imperfections, regardless of the rifling system used (hammer-forged included). These marks normally run in the opposite direction the bullet travels, creating "speed bumps" the bullet must negotiate: a bumpy ride down the barrel which ends in a bumpy flight to the target. Plus, the corrugated and unpolished surface of most barrels creates friction. This friction snags and abrades the bullet jacket, and the rough surface collects firing residue as well as bullet jacket material (fouling).
FinalFinish eradicates most all of these tool marks and leaves a lapped surface in its place.
Since even the most precisely manufactured barrels cannot be made perfect, variations in bore diameter can and do occur. Variations in bore diameters can ultimately mean variations in land (rifling) measurements, and it's the lands that drive the bullet. Bore diameter variations can be significant. FinalFinish greatly improves the uniformity over the full length of the barrel. While it is possible for a skilled gunsmith to hand-lap your factory barrel, it won't be cheap and you must cut and re-crown the muzzle. You can get most of the beneficial effects yourself in one morning at the range using FinalFinish. * * * FinalFinish is designed to improve . . . factory barrels. It will produce dramatic improvements in these barrels. The improved polish and smoothness will allow you to increase velocity and reduce fouling. This means that more rounds can be fired without accuracy deterioration. (Some of the most impressive results with FinalFinish have come in factory-barreled handguns. Our test firearms showed an average of 60-percent smaller groups! Lead bullet shooters especially will find much easier clean up too.) [Emphasis supplied.]
* * *[/size]
Finally, here is a link to some information on the man behind the product:
http://www.davidtubb.com/about-david-tubb
Meanwhile, for any of you out there who are reading this thread and considering the purchase of a Rohrbaugh R9, I sincerely suggest that you can do so in the sure and certain knowledge that you are purchasing the smallest, lightest, and most carefully machined and assembled full-house 9mm pocket pistol yet designed and marketed.
R out.
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A word of caution. I asked Eric (through Maria) about lapping these tool marks. His reply was that they are too deep and trying to lap them out would render the barrel out of spec and useless. This Eric's answer not mine.
I have used Tubb's fire-lapping technique on several rifles and a revolver. I have never used it on a semi auto pistol. This is a good product, but is designed to polish an already smooth barrel. The tool marks it removes can only be seen with a bore scope. I don't think you can hurt these barrels with this product, but it is not going to remove these tool marks in my opinion. It could possibly help the cleaning problem that I have with my R9.
I am keeping my R9 the way it is. Being familar with this process, I would not use it on my pistol.
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Hmmm...that sounds like a misunderstanding. I don't think Eric or Karl would have said the tool marks are so deep they can't be lapped out. I'll try and get that addressed as well, but that doesn't sound right to me at all.
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That is what was relayed to me by Maria some 18 months ago. It really did not sound right to me either, but they are the manufacturers.
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Attention Seecamp Owners:
Please share with us the number of times your Seecamp has shipped from Milford with a barrel, (or any other defect), in which the factory 1). Attempted to buy back the gun or 2). Proclaimed the problem as moot.
Hey!; it's just a pocket gun and this doesn't matter, right?
I've owned 4 Seecamps over the past 15 years. To answer your question: "It doesn't happen that way at Seecamp". I've owned an R9 for about two years now. By the looks of this issue I have been lucky I guess.
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I own two Seecamps. The barrels are bright and smooth. There has been no need to return one of them to date. Their customer service has been outstanding for me. I got a custom serial number and they were ahead of schedule on delivery.
Does anyone know if you can get a custom serial number on the R9. Actually, never mind I don't need the desire to buy another one!
Robar233