The Rohrbaugh Forum
Rohrbaugh Products and Accessories => Rohrbaugh R9 (all variations) => Topic started by: steve1147 on October 04, 2009, 07:37:37 PM
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I've owned my R9 for about 4 years now and LOVE it's conceal-ability and performance....AS LONG as I fire only factory loaded Silver Tips or white box Winchester seems to fire well also, both in 115 grain.
With any other ammo I've had numerous light strike misfires, partially ejected casings, etc., which originally worried me about it's dependability in a life or death situation.
All this is fine, I've learned from Karl that this high-performance machine requires certain fuel. I can live with that.
MY QUESTION IS: I've recently started reloading pistol ammo for my 357, 40, 45acp and 9mm.
What if any is the prime reloading recipe for a 9mm fireable and dependable in the R9?
I just finished reloading my first batch of 9's, 5.1 gn of Universal powder, 115 gn fmj, standard CCI primer. Had two jammed casings and two light-strike misfires in the first 12 rounds. ALMOST as bad as when I first got her and tried shooting Remington ammo!!!!
Thanks in advance for any help or info.
Steve W.
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Steve,
I don't reload but admire those of you who do; there are some on this forum who are avid re-loaders but i have never heard re-loads and the R9 mentioned together on this forum. Not to say that it can't be done but it seems that you answered your own question in your well thought out statement.
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I am a reloader, on/off for 40 years, steady on for last 15--., but have not reloaded nines in a few years.
Considering the gun;compact, springs;short,tight,highly compressed.
Taking my first swing would make think of using a more "snappy" powder like TightGroup or Bullseye.
That way the pressures would "ramp up" quicker.
Just a wild guess, but you have to start somewhere.
I"m sure there are many conflicting opinions to prove me wrong, but if I had the time, that is where I would start.
Good Luck
Reinz
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This was covered a little while back, here is the info.
Re: Anyone reloading for the R9?
« Reply #1 on: Aug 7th, 2009, 8:29pm » Quote Modify
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Welcome to the Rohrbaugh Forum, hk_mtbr;
I've been reloading for my R9s for the past few months with good results. 100% reliable feeding & extracting, 100% reliable ignition.
I've been using primarily Winchester and Remington brass; CCI 500 primers; Berry's 115 grain bullets; starting loads of Unique, Universal Clays, Power Pistol, HS-6. I like the Hogdon HS-6 the best because it generates very little flash. (Power Pistol is a good powder, but the worst from a muzzle flash standpoint.)
From a lot of reading on the 9mm cartridge, I wanted to be very careful to not compress the charge. So I measured O.A.L of a 115 gr Winchester White Box round, disassembled the round & measured bullet length. Then I adjusted O.A.L. of the rounds I was assembling by the difference between the Berry's and Winchester bullet lengths.
The adjusted O.A.L. of my handloads fell within the range recommended in several of my reloading manuals. 100% function at the range was proof of the pudding.
Steve
John
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Oh yeah, one other thing, since it appears that a few members seem to have problems with light primer strikes, I would use Federal Match Small Pistol Primers.
Federals, because overall consensus is that they are the "softest" (debatable, I know") primer.
Match - because they just go through more qc inspections, but cost a little more.
The next "softest" are considered to be Winchester
CCI's are considered the hardest.
Yes, many people consider this all BS, many swear by it.
I shoot competitively, I only use Federal Match even though they are the most expensive.
I have had one bad primer cost me a championship (not Fed).
REINZ
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OK, I tried the first round with Hodgden/Clays/Universal at 4.6 grains under a 115 gn fmj. Didn't work well at all (see above). Loaded another 50 rounds to save for other guns.
Gonna try the same bullet with 4.7 gns of WST, suppossedly a faster burning powder, see if that helps. I'll reload/shoot two or three clips and report on the findings.
Thanks, Steve W.
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PSS, Also, on the light strike issue, I've realized over the years I CANNOT shoot any Remington in my R9, and I've read the CCI primers are even harder, so I'm not surprised the CCI's show me FTF's once in a while. Problem is they're all I can get for reloading right now, and I'm happy to get them! I have to drive 40 miles to buy the store's self-imposed limit of 200/customer/day.
If I can only come up with a good powder recipe, hopefully in the future I can buy Federal or Winchester primers and have a good/dependable load for target practice at a cheaper price than the Silver Tips the gun seems to demand.
Thanks! Steve W.
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It seems like we have a situation where, relatively speaking, the WWB is more available than the primers. I just recently saw some WWB .45 showing up on shelves for the first time in awhile.
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Steve:
I'm not a reloader, so allow me simply to welcome you to the Forum.
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I'm in that catagory as well, but would like to welcome you to the forum. Much information is available here, so come back often.
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Thanks Everyone! 4-5 years ago when I bought my R9 I was lost. My previous c/c gun was a S&W hammerless 357 revolver. It would and still will fire anything I put in it, BUT it was too awkward and heavy for what I wanted. I had my R9 shipped back to the factory twice, thinking a $1200 handgun should shoot corn cobs if I could get them in the clip. HOW WRONG.
Met a guy today who shoots long guns, and has the same issues, he paid over $2,000 for a high-end AR-15 style rife, and has to choose ammo very carefully.
My favorite everyday target gun is my Ruger stainless GP-100 in 357 (by far), followed by my Glock model 30 in 45acp.
Thanks for the warm welcome here, I do appreciate it.
I'll post again tomorrow after I load a few rounds with the WST and see how they do.
Thanks, Steve W.
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I think the WST will work better, especially if you can run it at least in the 1000 fps range.
Good Luck
Reinz
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Ok guys, check these pics out:
http://www.geocities.com/chatrats/rohrbaugh_1.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/chatrats/rohrbaugh_2.jpg
I don't think this has anything to do with my reloading efforts, but after firing my last round of trials, this is what the spent cartridges looked like. NOT pretty.
I've ALWAYS had problems with reliability, but today I loaded 50 with 4.8 gns of WST, CCI 500 primer, and a 115 gn fmj.
Out of the 50, not a single failure to eject case, good accuracy and feel, BUT numerous light strikes, one each each clip at least, but I blamed that on the CCI primers. BUT towards the end I once had to pull the trigger 7 times to fire the round in the chamber. You'll see the evidence of this in the pics posted above.
Thanks for your input, don't know what to do next!
Steve W.
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Not sure if this will correct your light primer strike problem, but I'd look at this post -
http://www.rohrbaughforum.com/YaBB.cgi?board=R9S;action=display;num=1237069457;start=17#17
I had this same problem when I first got my R9s. Got it home after the first outing, and even though I had no failures of any kind I did have some light primer stikes. My grip screws were loose and the trigger return spring was not fully seated where it should be. Here's another post to help you see what I'm referring to.
http://www.rohrbaughforum.com/YaBB.cgi?board=Cleaning;action=display;num=1239329782
Not sure if this is your problem, but something to rule out.
David
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Given the intended purpose of the R9 as a defensive weapon, I chose to use factory ammo at all times. If I were to be scrutinized on its use as a weapon, the LAST thing I would want to say is that I made my own [deadly] ammo...
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YUP, It is and was an experiment. I'll always use the reliable Silvertips in a defensive position. Thought it might be interesting to develop a dependable round, but probably not worth the effort considering I like most of you fire maybe one clip per month, then clean and reload for the next few weeks of carry.
Being new to reloading (and it's GREAT for target shooting with my Rugers, S&W and Glock) thought maybe I could duplicate an excellent round for the R9.
I'm going to clean it now, shoot a clip of Silvertips to verify dependability, and save the reloads for the target guns!!!
THANKS! Steve W.
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Ok guys, check these pics out:
http://www.geocities.com/chatrats/rohrbaugh_1.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/chatrats/rohrbaugh_2.jpg
, BUT numerous light strikes, one each each clip at least, but I blamed that on the CCI primers. BUT towards the end I once had to pull the trigger 7 times to fire the round in the chamber. You'll see the evidence of this in the pics posted above.
T
Steve W.
One of the many testimonials to stay away from CCI primers.
Reinz
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I think you're on to something here. I reload my own 45 acp and have a lot of fun with it.
I've also built ammo that is more accurate than what I've been able to buy (Oregon Trail Laser Cast 200 gr SWC over 5.4 gr W231 and Winchester LPP is my current favorite... one hole baby!).
The R9 seems to have champaign taste in ammo for the most part (if you can't get WWB at walmart) so it makes sense to me to come up with a list of bullets that like this barrel design and at what speed she likes to spit em.
Then figuring out which burn rates she likes the best out of that...
I wouldn't mind contributing to this adventure however my contribution would have to wait until I had 9mm dies... which isn't going to happen soon when I need some .223 dies more importantly.
Hmm.. might have to bust out some emergency 'play' money and get those dies..
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From a legal standpoint in case you have to use the R9 or any weapon in a self defense scenario, Factory loads are the only ones recommended. This is because you cannot present your own self made evidence of a gentle load etc. Your reloading log will NOT be accepted as you yourself wrote it. With Factory loads all you have to do is show that you picked that particular load to limit penetration etc. Which is what JHP rounds are good for.
Chief
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Who said anything about shooting someone?
Although I didn't specifically make the distinction, I'm talking about not having to shoot $1/rd. at the range (when you can't get WWB).
I'm also talking about ringing that last 5% of performance out of her. Again, this has nothing to do with shooting people. Associative leaps like that are how bad decisions are made about our sport and hobby.
I'm talking about making specific customized ammo for the Rohrbaugh for the enjoyment of the Rohrbaugh. That is all.
I'm not sure I recall seeing anything other than that being theorized in this thread. Maybe I'm wrong?
As for actually having to shoot someone:
I've heard the handload legal argument before... at least 20,000 times.
I'm not sure if it has as much merrit these days as it may have in the past, if it ever had merrit in the first place.
Today I think it's safe to say that the hand gun is accepted as being carried for personal defense. That personal defense includes lethal force. I don't see how a handload could be used by a DA as evidence of 'increased lethality' when all you have to do is present a few ammo ads from gun magazines and see that increased lethality is the order of business with the manufacturers themselves. In other words, having customized ammunition that increases the lethality of the weapon is not out of character for what it is being used for in the first place.
Also, if you have been handloading ammunition for 10 years (or another very long length of time that preceedes the shooting) then it would be difficult to prove pre-meditation unless they were going to go for the ol' "he's been planning on shooting that specific violent criminal for 10 years". This doesn't sound feasible.
Especially when the performance of the bullet ballistically is similar to what manufactureres are producing these days and that the 'recipe' can be found in many publications.
It's not like we're attaching RPG's to our handloads. They are basically the same and that can be measured.
I think that any cases where hand loads have come into play had defective defense attorneys, or the circumstances just didn't work out (the defendant just started handloading before the incident), or it was Kalifornia or New York or some other gun unfriendly place, or a case that hinged on handloads being used never existed in the first place (if you know of one, please correct me so I can study it, thank you).
To me, the handload argument holds NO water. It is simply a meme being carried on from days past by a series of frightened parrots.
That said, I am not confident enough in my own argument here to carry hand loaded ammo frequently, which I am known to do when I do not have any factory ammo. As soon as I get some factor ammo, my carry pistol is loaded with it.
Handloading is a rewarding and interesting hobby. You can wring that last little bit (sometimes a lot) of performance out of your firearms. To me, that makes it worth it, regardless of the cost or the result (as long as the result is not injury of any kind).
It would be great if people could just leave threads alone when they have an off-topic point. Instead of 'What's the point? Gold dots work great!' it could be, "I tried this or that, it worked out this or that way".
Somehow that seems more helpful to me.
Kinda like buying the best pocket pistol in the world.. the Rohrbaugh R9 9mm series. It doesn't make sense to everyone, but it makes sense to me!
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The pupose of a pocket pistol is self defense. Hopefully one never has to use it. Even the Rohrbaughs make the point that it is designed to be carried alot and shot a little. As far a the legalities that kick in if you have to use it for it's intended purpose, one of the people that are concerned with and recommend against handloads is Massb Ayoob, a man that is concidered in many cases to be an expert in the field and is called upon often as a technical expert in defending people that have had to defend themselves. No one said anything about shooting handloads at the range, My point was only to advise against handloads when you are carrying the pup for self defense. If as you say, 22,000 people have stated this argument, it would seem prudent to pay a little attention to it at least. The way I do it is handload shells that match what my factory carry loads are. Then shoot them at range, once I am finished and clean my weapon I put the factory loads back in. That way I am firing what I am carrying and not spending $1 per round practising.
Chief
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I respect Massad Ayoob's opinions. I follow a lot of his stuff. However, I disagree with him on this if he is the creater of this meme.
Prosectution is going to try and attack everything they can, including ammo that isn't handloaded..
I also disagree with the meme on this board that implies that the R9 is somehow different than other hand guns in the idea that you don't need to consistently practice with it to be proficient with it in a self defense situation. I'm pretty sure Massad Ayoob would disagree with it too.
99.999999% of a self defense pistols actual use should be at the range or other practicing venue.
Hence the reason to find less expensive, premium ammunition, such as handloads.
edit: "changed defnese to 'defense'" as I'm pretty sure that everyones knees are deaf.
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WOW.......Has this ever gone off-track. I NEVER intended to have "lawyers" (or wanna-be's) arguing the legalities of killing someone with a reloaded cartridge!!!! I just wanted to experiment on creating a shootable practice round. Maybe you guys could start your legal/ethical battle on another TOTALLY separate thread????
thanks, Steve W.
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Sorry Steve! Got a little carried away there.
There are some themes on this board that I think are dangrous ways to think!
Back to your point:
If i had the dies, I'd probably start with:
Montana Gold Bullet 115 gr JHP, a starting load of Titegroup, with a federal primer.
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I haven't been able to get any Federal primers, I did however manage to get a brick of Winchester small pistol primers at a gun show last weekend (for $50!!!).
Are these much softer than CCI's?
Thanks, Steve W.
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Yes I believe they are.
You can measure the thickness of the primer cup with a mic. I believe CCI's are the thickest usually.
There are probably other factors than just thickness, but there does seem to be a relationship there.
Winchester SPP would be my next choice anyways. I use their LPP for all my 45 loads.. love em.. 1 hard primer in over 8000 uses.. pretty good.
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I don't personally know that much about the primers either, I've read many differing opinions, but the one opinion that seems evidently true is Federals are the easiest to ignite. Others however have listed the Remington as softer than Winchester, when by personal experience my R9 will fire Winchester factory cartridges dependably, while experiencing too many to count light strikes with Remington factory ammo.
I do know since I post-weigh my reloaded rounds before firing that the Winchester empty cartridges are quite heavy, others fall in the middle, with Federal factory empty cartridges normally lighter by 2-5 grains.
Steve W.
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To follow up on this regrettably hijacked thread, (apologies, Steve) I wanted to add one reason WHY Mas Ayoob recommends against handloads for self defense. He says that in the case where Gun Shot Residue GSR must be analyzed, a handload has no reproducable standard to evaluate to. To determine the distance from the BG, GSR can be analyzed and the firing distance determined, provided that the load is a known VERIFIABLE value. Handloads would prevent that use of GSR evidence from assisting in your defense, as they cannot be proven to be consistent like a factory load. Was the perp 4 feet away or 10? Could be a big deal!
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Be sure to seat the primers fully (without crushing) and watch OAL; keep it to the length of the rounds that your R9 prefers in factory fodder.
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I found some Speer Gold Dot bullets (not loaded ammo) at cheaperthandirt.com in case anyone's interested:
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/29657-1.html