The Rohrbaugh Forum
Rohrbaugh Products and Accessories => Rohrbaugh R9 (all variations) => Topic started by: harrydog on January 27, 2006, 06:48:07 PM
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I know there are a few people, a VERY small percentage of forum members, who have had functioning problems (mostly FTF) with their guns. Unfortunately I'm one of those people. I sent my R9 back to the factory at Karl's recommendation so they could take a look at. It will ship back to me on Monday, exactly one week after I shipped it off them. That's a very quick turn around. I don't think there is anyone who can say anything negative about Rohrbaugh's customer service.
My question is, how many of the people with problems have had them resolved? I know of one person who couldn't get things to work after several trips back to the factory so he gave up on the gun but I'm not sure where the others stand.
I'm wondering what the likelyhood is of getting the gun to work reliably for those individuals who have experienced problems.
I'm really, really hoping that whatever was done to my gun will solve the problem because I love this gun and want to keep it.
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I hope that you get some feedback on this..
Sometimes all we hear and see are the "problems" and then we never know what the results are later!! ;)
I am sure the Bros R will take care of your problems and that you will continue to rely on the pup for your needs.. ;D
Wishing you well in getting the pup back and enjoying it for the fine piece of craftsmanship it is.. 8)
Brenden
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Here is a thought....
I was talking to my friend, and fellow R9 owner. He had one failure to feed when his R9 was new.
The other day, he took it all apart to clean it.
He diassembled the magazine, paying attention to the orientation of the mag spring. reassembled, took the other mag apart, and the spring was inverted.
Now he doesn't know what the proper orientation of the magazine spring is.
Could this be a problem with some of the malfunctions we see?
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That is interesting Art. I have never taken a mag apart. This link to Chris's site shows a mag apart.
http://www.acbsystems.com/boards/rohrbaugh/basefile/r9-detail-pics.htm
Looking at it you would not think it would make a difference on what end went in the mag first but maybe it does make a big difference.
Maybe Chris will weigh in on this.
It would be interesting to have those who had a problem and sent the R9 back state if the problem was resolved. There is still the unkown in the equation, The brothers have stated that some people have a problem with the gun - whether it is their hand shape or whatever.
Harry -- hope your returned R9 is ok for you.
Dave
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True enough - it does seem we have missed out on one or two follow-up reports. Guns that had troubles seemingly and went back. Harry - I do also sure hope your returned Pup will be well behaved.
I'd like to think that all that was wrong was righted with returned guns - if in fact the guns had faults themselves.
Re the springs in mags - to scarfe my pic from the site! - yes I do believe improper fitting of spring could prejudice function. Notice how the spring in the correct position will exert a force to assist follower to stay tipped up at front. Put spring in 180º about and I suspect the presentation of a fresh round could be impaired - may not take much but if that round is not exactly ''mated'' with feedlips for angle, well - not as ideal maybe. Certainly reliability could be prejudiced I think.
Look at it another way - if spring force on follower is not normal to axis of mag body - then we could see an increase in friction, between follower and inner walls - not much perhaps but possibly enough to reduce feed pressure.
Hmmm - pic not showing yet - wonder why!
(http://www.acbsystems.com/boards/rohrbaugh/images/mag-parts-353-s.jpg)
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Thanks guys, that picture, and the link above will help out a lot. I will forward this to Dave, and he will correct his mag spring.
I do have to say, he did not tell me in what manner the springs differed, just that the two were disimilar.
Thanks again
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I also hope those with past problems will share with us what happened in the end. I suspect that everything is running fine or we would all know.
Tom
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Hi Harrydog, I can attest to getting my pup fixed..
I had some problems with misfeeds and sent it in and Karl replaced the slide and I put about 200 rounds thru the little fella and it worked like a charm with no problems.
I hope you get yours back and find it is working for you ok.
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>>HarryDog...
I have two R9s and developed FTF in both. I sent them back to Karl...he returned them in a week and both have been 100% ever since...!!...TW<<
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That's good to hear and makes me all the more hopeful that mine will be 100% as well.
TW - Did Karl tell you what was done to your guns?
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TW, thats sounds great, it is nice to know that Karl and company have taken care of the problems and your pups are running fine.
Tom
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I'm also pleased to learn the guns were returned in fine condition.
It sure is good to know we will be well cared for.
I hope everybody will continue to describe their experiences after receiving the pistol back from factory service.
Bill
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Well, mostly good news.
I got to the range yesterday and ran 40 rounds of 124gr Gold Dots through the gun. No problems except for one FTF when I purposely limp-wristed the first round out of a magazine. This was after I had already fired about 30 rounds. The round didn't lodge nose up against the top of the chamber like all of my previous FTFs but rather the nose of the bullet got stuck on the feed ramp. A tap on the rear of the slide chambered the round.
So, I consider this to be a positive sign that any problems my gun may have had were resolved. I don't know what Karl did to the gun. Maria said she would ask them to put a note in with my gun explaining what was done but that didn't happen.
I'm thinking maybe I will polish the feed ramp. Although it looks fairly smooth, I know it could be smoother. I have a dremel but I'd rather do it by hand to minimize the possibility of messing it up. Can I use Flitz for this or do I need something else? Any tips?
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Harry, at this point, if I were you, I would not doctor the gun myself as it is still under factory observation, so to speak. I think you should keep shooting it and see what develops if anything. ;)
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Harry - if you really did want to slick up the feed ramp - and I'd tend to leave things alone ideally - but a Dremel is OK I reckon - with a small felt mop wheel and some Simichrome lightly smeared on.
It will help produce a mirror shine and cannot IMO prejudice anything. I do tho think that unless a feed ramp is obviously and literally rough - then the useful effect is pretty miniscule.
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He diassembled the magazine, paying attention to the orientation of the mag spring. reassembled, took the other mag apart, and the spring was inverted.
Now he doesn't know what the proper orientation of the magazine spring is.
Could this be a problem with some of the malfunctions we see?
I just took both of my magazines apart, in an attempt to run down my own FTF problems. Both of my magazines are straight from the factory, and have never been disassembled. To my surprise, one had a spring oriented like in R9SCarry's picture, the other had the magazine "rolled over" 180 degrees so the ends angle in the opposite directions!
I don't think my problems were limited to a single mag, especially since they didn't occur prior to my cleaning, but it's worth a shot. R9SCarry, are you sure your picture shows the proper spring orientation?
Of course, assuming your gun works, I reckon it must be proper!
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...the other had the magazine "rolled over" 180 degrees so the ends angle in the opposite directions!quote]
>>I don't understand what you are trying to describe here - ??...TW<<
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Well, let's say the magazine in R9SCarry's picture looks kind of like a series of capital "M"s linked together. If I were to lay out the parts of my two magazines in the same manner, oriented in the same way, one of my springs came out looking like the picture, a series of capital "M"s. The other magazine spring came out inverted, looking like a series of "W"s linked together.
Make sense now?
And that was how they came from the factory.
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sgt - yes ''M'' or "W" - that works. ;) My pic is all "M".
I am pretty darned sure this is correct and the thing that makes me confirm that - purely out of what I see as logic - is the way the spring sits inside follower.
Think about it - that top spring section must be better situated if it matches the angle of the follower inside! Turn it 180º and reassemble and the pressure inside follower is potentially a point contact at the rear - producing a slight tipping action force.
Thus to me right now this makes sense - but I can see the definite possibility of mag's reaching the R factory that have been put together the less ideal way. I will try and do a small diagram later to make my point re the forces inside the follower.
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OK - here's a diag' - my contention here is that the left side makes sense - the spring force is exerted pretty much normal to long axis of mag shell. That is what I take to be the correct orientation.
The right shows the resultant of the force by the spring - when the tip of top coil exerts pressure to rear of follower - thus if any drag factors between follower and mag shell this will only be increased. The floor-plate aspect is relatively immaterial IMO.
Seem logical? I am as ever, more than happy to be shot down!!
(http://www.acbsystems.com/boards/thr/shoot7/r9-mag-spring.gif)
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I know that the Seecamp's mag spring is supposed to be oriented like the drawing on the right, to assist (I think) in keeping the base of the cartridges pushed up.
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Interesting Ubik - tho I still feel that freedom of follower is important. The R9 follower is a pretty snug fit, so wouldn't think there'd be much change in that on cartridge base.
Anyone else? As I said - my logic may be flawed yet! I may have to do a detailed check on this, just to be sure - no way do I want to misinform.
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>>Ahhhhh, yes - got it. Thanks, guys. I've got seven R9 mags, and will have to have a look at them soon, just because...TW<<
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Let us know TW - what the spring orientations are in each - be a good sample.
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I will attempt to do the same this weekend..
I guess I can look at close to 15 mags!! :o
The ones I have ran,have been no problem..
If I have the time-will report.. ;)
Brenden
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Great Brenden - sure would like a largish sample.
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I just checked my two mags and both of the springs were positioned like the example on the left, which I also think seems the most logical.
My gun and both mags have just come back from the factory where they were thoroughly gone over by Karl. For that reason I would have to assume that the example on the left shows the proper spring orientation.
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Thx Harry - now waiting to see what the others find when checking theirs.
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I checked 13 different mags while sitting at the puter-multi-tasking as they say!! ;)
All were orientated as to the pic on the left in Chris's post..
Now-I found 3 of them,have not used them as yet,that were a bugger to get off the baseplates.. :o
I mean I had to issue more force than I really cared to.. ;)
I do not think that this would make a difference in feeding the pup,but I have set them aside for future "trials"
BTW,mags were from "pre"R to Deer Park time frames..
The ones that were difficult on the base plate,were all from late 04..
Brenden
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Geting back to the failures, may I suggest an experiment? Load up a magazine and let it sit fully loaded for a while, compressing the spring. See it that helps any.
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Hi Everybody,
I started a thread under Rohrbaugh Wish List, entitled R9 "Break-In" Certification. In light of the continuing problem, it seems more appropriate to continue the discussion here under this thread.
I purchased an R9s just before Christmas, and went out to the range with great excitment, only to discover 2 failures-to-extract in the first 15 rounds of Speer Gold Dot 115 gr.! That was a real "party pooper".
I came back to the Rohrbaugh Forum and read everything I could about the possible causes. The Forum members were very helpful with their sugestions. The problem continuued for the next 3 trips to the range. I tried holding the gun as hard as I could, as Karl Rohrbaugh advised in a telephone conversation to me. I put on grip tape, as several threads in the Forum discuss. I bought a Hogue rubber sleeve, and tried that. Interestingly enough, I acquired a Kel-Tec generation 2 P3-AT (.380) and it has had no problems at all in about 50 rounds. It is surprisingly accurate too. Of course,at it's price it doesn't have the finish and tooling that the R9s has, but it goes bang all the time for me.
Karl suggested that I return it to the factory for a workover, so I sent it UPS overnight on a Thursday evening, and the factory got it back to me the next Tuesday morning. Talk about fast service! If I read the invoice right, they put in a new barrel.
As soon as the weather permitted, I went back to the range. With high hopes, I put 3 groups of 5 rounds through the R9s. The first 13 cycled perfectly with reasonable accuracy. I thought "Oh Boy!, It's fixed!!". You guessed it. The last 2 rounds failed to extract.
Now what do I do? I can assume that it needs more "break-in" to get reliable and shoot another 50 rounds or so. I can send it back to the factory, or maybe I should assume that at age 78 my grip just isn't up to an R9s. RJ Hedley suggested that maybe I was a "revolver" person and he may be right. However, the Kel-Tec P3-AT shoots for me just beautifully.
I guess I could try shooting the R9s off sandbags, or get another experienced shooter to try it out. Maybe, I should just give up and sell it off. I did buy an airlight S&W J-Frame 360 PD (357/38) and it shoots beautifully with the Gold Dot 38 Spec. +P 135 gr. "short barrel" ammo. It just weighs 12 oz. and is a sweet little gun.
But damn, I would sure like to get the Rohrbaugh to work reliably for me. It's just a pleasure to handle. What do you all think? What action should I take?
Best Wishes,
LeonB570
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Leon,
Have someone shoot the gun that your positive they can grip it well and knows how to. Have someone watch you shoot the gun. Remember no fingers or thumbs near the slide. Make sure the gun is cleaned and lubed. Best of luck to you.
Respectfully,
Jim
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Leon - very sorry to hear of continued problems.
I would indeed as Jim suggests - get someone else to try - and in process of course achieve a bit more break-in.
So hard to know what is going on - and if you manage airweights and KelTec's then can't believe you have too much grip problem.
I guess - persevere a bit more before giving up - but it does seem that just now again, this gun just does not suit some folks - and danged if I always can see why! :-[
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When I shoot the R9 I push the gun forward like I am shoving it into someones chest as I squeeze the trigger.
"Hold it like you mean it."
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bigyimmy,
I've also read elsewhere about folks using that technique to help keep the recoil more manageable.
It sounds like a good idea.
Bill
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Bill,
Pushing, pulling, yanking, or banking seems like a bad
idea to me when firing a weapon. Why not keep it
simple and not move anything that doesn't move?
Consistency is the key and any induced movement
will produce erratic results. IMHO.
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I also do not feel that any ''thrust'' when shooting is going to be any useful aid, other than to loss of accuracy, control and consistency!!
Somehow grip has to be gotten right, for the individual. Providing the grip and arm are not allowed to ''soak up'' energy that should otherwise be going back into the gun - it should function fine.
I sometimes suggest a ''white knuckle'' grip - and then back off a tad. No induced tremor is wanted but sure as heck - solid control is. Essential.
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Some years ago after reading about pushing the pistol forward, I tried it but was unsuccessful. It just wasn't for me.
I believed the writer was attempting to better manage the recoil.
Now that I have a big, full-sized HK .45, I just close my eyes and hope for the best. :D Just kidding, of course. There is little room for humor during the safe operation of firearms. Being safe is a full-time job.
It is a privilege which I cheerish.
Bill
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If the shooter pushs with the strong hand on the gun and pulls with the weak hand the recoil should be less.
Tom
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Tom,
Now that you mention it, I do remember reading the same thing. Apparently, some folks do try it.
Bill
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Ok! Before I take any more beatings (LOL) over the “like you pushing it into someone’s chest” analogy let me explain in more detail. What I want you to do is stand up. Now grasp your imaginary R9 pistol. Now pretend someone is standing right in front of you and you are taking your R9’s muzzle and pushing into their chest. The same as you would push your finger in their chest. This is the best I can explain it. The gun is not flying around gangsta’ style or nothing else out of the ordinary. All you are doing is holding it like you mean it and sticking it (the muzzle) forward like you would stick your finger in someone’s chest. It works for me. I have had zero malfunctions and I shoot excellent groups.
Respectfully,
Gangsta’ Jim
~What up my man? LOL
:D
Please use the link below for more information:
http://www.rohrbaughforum.com/YaBB.cgi?board=Water;action=display;num=1140091774
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Hi Everybody,
Thanks for the suggestions. I'll try the "chest-poking" suggestion by Bigyimmy, the next time out to the range when we have a no-wind, somewhat warmer day. I have also ordered several different brands and weights of good quality ammo to try, just in case my R9s (with my hand hold) prefers a particular type for some unkown reason. I'll give it a couple more months of trial before I give up and sell it off.
Thanks again for your helpful ideas.
Best Wishes,
Leon
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Ahhh - ''Gangsta Jim'' - I am with you now - it is clearer! :)
I think this is therefore more of a total body fwd thrust - ''into the gun'' so to speak and that I can accept better. I was I fear seeing Lone Ranger, just a bit ;D
The grip as Tom mentions is what I call ''antagonistic'' gripping - I think I do it by default now I ponder it. It is ''push-pull'' such that equal and opposite forces are achieved with each hand and arm. Yes, that does provide greater stability IMO - it puts more strength into the grip even when shooter has an otherwise compromized hold due to injury or just not enough strength.
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I use the "push-pull" two handed grip for all of my hand guns and it had always worked well for me, with the exception of the R9. I've experimented with all manner of gripping styles with the R9 and have found that all of them work about the same. That is to say that all of them work well MOST of the time. But I've had malfunctions with all of them.
I ran another 25 rounds through the gun yesterday. Mostly Gold Dots and one mag full of Winchester white box. I used mostly a two handed grip this time (push-pull). I only had one malfunction. It was with the white box ammo and it was a combination FTE/FTF. By that I mean the spent casing got hung up before it completely cleared the slide and the next round was partially out of the magazine headed towards the chamber. This was at the end of my range session (last magazine). I had also shot 100 rounds of .45 and several boxes of 12ga 00 buckshot just prior to shooting the R9, so fatigue may have been the culprit.
I've been to the range with my R9 on six occasions and shot a total of about 200 rounds. I've had at least one malfunction each time with the exception of once when I shot 25 rounds of Gold Dots with no problems. In the beginning I was having multiple malfunctions each time but recently they're occurring much less often - maybe only one per session.
My thoughts are that the malfunctions in the beginning were mostly attributable to break-in or perhaps the gun needing some tweaking. Now I think the malfunctions (for me at least) are likely attributable to being a bit lax in how I grip the gun. If I am not concentrating on holding the gun in an absolute death grip, malfunctions will SOMETIMES occur. This is with either two-handed or one-handed grips - doesn't seem to matter. It's just enough of a problem to prevent me from being absolutely confident in the gun for carry purposes. I'm not giving up on it yet though. I'll continue to practice with it. I'm just not going to shoot more than 20 - 25 rounds through it each time so that I avoid putting too many rounds through the gun.
I would recommend that everyone practice shooting this gun with both one-handed and two-handed grips. Since, as Karl says, this is a "gut gun" which is meant to be used at very close quarters. You may not have a chance to get a perfect two-handed grip on the gun after drawing it. As they say, a real-life situation is not likely to happen the way you expect it
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Harry - may be a minor point but - re grip strength -
I am despite being close on 61 - fortunate to have one heck of a grip - I have hurt a few hands with a handshake, liking as I do a firm handshake. Hand size too i think has quite a bit to do with it tho - my quite large hams could almost be said to be a disadvantage, on something as small as the pup! :D
I would suggest tho that for some folks the ubiquitous tennis ball excercizer could help. Just have said object to hand when watching some TV etc - and do many repetitions of squeeze. I does over time add something to the grip IMO - tho if some arthritic factors, then do not overdo too much in one session.
I am very confident with my carry pup but I do practice failure drills - just as I might on my 1º SIG or any other carry piece. Even the simple action of fast and energetic slide racking to clear one round and feed another - and letting slide ''slingshot'' firmly too.
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I thought I would post an update on my gun. It's going back to Rohrbaugh for the second time. As I mentioned elsewhere, I'm still have FTF problems and for the first time ever, a FTE. This was with the recommended Silvertips. :'(
I'm not sure what Karl could possibly do to the gun to correct this, but let's see.
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Shucks Harry - I am sorry you have had so many problems. It seems very unfair!
I do hope that not only will you have the definitive fix but also that you (we) can know what might have been at the root of things.
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Thanks for the kind words Chris. It's tough for me because I've followed this gun with enthusiasm from the very beginning, long before it went into production. I wanted one badly but held off initially so that any potential bugs could be sorted out in the first year of production.
Now when I read about all of the happy owners with guns that are flawless, I can't help but feel left out and frankly just a bit jealous. Heck, some people have even said they can't make their R9 malfunction even when they purposely limp wrist it.
I honestly don't know what could possibly be wrong with my grip (if that's what the problem is). I've tried everything I can think of. I've been shooting for well over 30 years and this is the only gun problem I've had that I can't seem to get resolved.
I need a shoulder to cry on.... :'( :'(
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This is very interesting reading and I have a couple questions for the veteran forum contributors. Those of you familiar with Rohrbaugh's QA habits, I think it would be very informative to learn steps taken when defects in workmanship or materials occur. Repeditive complaints of same nature should diminish over time. Any comment on this subject?
My other question. When problems occur and Rohrbaugh determines it is their error, do they pick up all shipping cost?:
Thanks, Fred
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Fred - I'd say that any so called repetitive prob's indeed do diminish over time - the cracked slide problem was one such example and quite short lived in scale. Not many others I can recall other than perhaps again a short spell when the main pin had a problem, which was soon corrected.
I believe they pick up the tab for shipping in most cases but I will say this - Eric has told me that some guns he has had back behaved flawlessly and still they have covered costs. This gun does seemingly and quite simply, just not perform for some people - the reasons have to be in part speculation but I must say, if on test at the factory a gun is fault-free then there is little the Bros R can do!
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R9SCarry,
Thank You. I appreciate your feedback.
Fred