The Rohrbaugh Forum
Rohrbaugh Products and Accessories => Rohrbaugh R9 (all variations) => Topic started by: gr8guns on June 13, 2005, 11:51:00 AM
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Calculated as follows:
We select 124 gr. jhp. as a good compromise between high velocity for expansion and mass for penetration. [Note a trend of many SWATs (including LAPD) and Special Forces going to bigger caliber and heavier bullets (.45, 230 gr). But the R9 is a pocket gun.]
R9 VELOCITY CALIBRATION:
http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=81781
Ammo type ........ Remington Golden Saber 124 grain JHP
Shot # 1 - 1002.15 fps
Shot # 2 - 1002.73 fps
Shot # 3 - 994.16 fps
Shot # 4 - 985.02 fps
Shot # 5 - 980.79 fps
Low vel = 980.79
Hi vel = 1002.73
Average vel = 992.8 nom
Hi-Lo extreme spread = 21.94
Muzzle energy (based on average vel) = 271.5 ft lbs
R9 IS BETTER OR EQUIVALENT TO .38 SPECIAL WITH 4" BARREL
http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/Humble%2038%20Special.htm
Velocity from .38 Special with 4" barrel
Federal 125-grain Nyclad HP: 938 feet per second.
ONE SHOT STOPS
http://www.neiassociates.org/caliber.htm
Per Evan Marshal, one shot stops from 4" barrel .38 special:
Federal 125gr jhp = 72% out of 239 one-shot-torso-shootings.
CONCLUSION & PREDICTION:
Rohrbaugh R9 one shot (to torso) stops = 72% or better.
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I think equating one shot stop performance between 9mm & .38 special by simply looking @ their muzzle energy & muzzle velocity is kind of speculative, & reaching. You also have to look at how the projectile performs when entering the body. How it either fragments/ mushrooms, as well as over/under penetration. This is where the two calibers diverge in performance, both in regards to caliber as well as ammo manufacture. As a result I really gotta` respectfully disagree with you in conclusion & prediction, it’s too apples & oranges dude. Then again I’m no expert.
It’s an interesting point you bring up, and those links were an interesting read. Anyone else have an opinion?
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Interesting figures and thanks for your efforts posting.
However - the bottom line is and always will be IMO - simply - shot placement. Even hardball can and will do satisfactory damage, in certain areas - the prerequisite being the nature of that damage.
Bleeding out will often lead to victim death but over a time frame that is excessive. Thus best placement will result in achieving CNS damage - usually the only ''stopper'' because of ''cutting wires'' as against just causing a ''leak in the plumbing''!
The whole subject of stops, calibers etc ... is huge and highly contentious - always has been and will continue thus. I could envisage loading up a perp with all seven rounds from the R9 (even from my SIG come to that) - and he'd keep on coming and shooting.
OTOH, maybe just two R9 shots if placed well (luck as well as judgement under pressure), could cause a rapid drop. Placement will determine much more than gun, ammo or cal.
Summing up - I doubt very much we can ascribe a reliable stop % for any round and see it demonstrate that every time. If push comes to shove ever for any of us then - we will hope to manage adequately under pressure and make hits that count - but no written factoid will either guarantee our result or demean it.
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The missing factor is bullet design. A 124 grain 9mm bullet at 900 fps and a 125 grain .38 +P at 900 fps have the same potential energy to do damage....but how effetively the bullet penetrates and expands will be the deciding factor between good defensive ammo and not so good.
Read any geletin, phone book or waterjug test of 4 different rounds of the same basic weight and velocity and you'll see 4 different depths of penetration and 4 different levels of expansion.
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Thank you all.
In order to establish a lower bound on predicted one-shot-stops, I did try to eliminate variables in caliber, cartridge, and bullet design by the following:
a) To account for the 9 mm caliber and 3" barrel of the Rohrbaugh R9, I "gave up" 55 fps dropping from the R9 (Golden Saber 124 grain JHP at 992.8 fps) to the .38 Special (Federal 125-grain Nyclad HP going 938 fps). The .38 Special velocity and mass info came from a 4" barrel revolver.
b) I made this comparison because it allowed me to use Evan Marshall's published data for .38 Special revolvers with 4" barrels.
c) I selected calibers of similar diameter (9 mm vs. .38 Special) and bullets of similar mass (125 grain vs. 124 grain.)
d) For cartridge brand and bullet design in the .38 Special, velocity info came from Federal 125-grain Nyclad HP and One-Shot-Stop info came from Federal 125-grain HP.
e) Bullet placement is anyplace on the torso for 239 examples.
As you can see, I have accounted for caliber, velocity, bullet mass, bullet design, and bullet placement. I believe time will show the 72% one-shot-stops for torso hits to be quite accurate and to actually represent a lower bound for real life data.
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[size=13]e) Bullet placement is anyplace on the torso for 239 examples.[/size]
That is a good size sample but this is still where I have some problem over seeing any ''% Guarantee'' re stops. ''Anyplace'' bothers me.
Looking at torso anatomy - we have basically thorax and abdomen. Thorax is overall more critical to hits IMO regarding speed of effect - however, ribs, sternum etc can contribute to deflections and degredation of penetration.
Even a direct heart shot can still leave a BG way too much time before his BP drops to levels where he cannot function - maybe a whole minute. Hit the aorta and things can happen quicker.
Lung perforation will lead to a sudden pneumothorax but I cannot see this usually generating any sudden stop - in particular if the guy is hyped up. Should a round get as far as spine then there is potential for paralysis below hit level - but not necessarily a total stop of a gun in hand.
Abdominal shots, whilst messy and far from pleasant will often just succeed in gut damage - possibly far from enough to stop a determined assailant. Even shots that hit organs like liver or pancreas may not have an immediate effect. A spinal hit may well be the most effective but that is far from being a major area to be able to hit by design.
Ok - let me admit - I am being pessimistic - on purpose! Really just trying to make the point that - putting a guy's lights out'' ........ is going to be possibly, far from easy or pre-determined by any figures. Were I ever to be in a ''situation'' from which no escape then I sure would hope for a quick result - but I cannot rest easy knowing that it will occur for sure.
Best I can hope for is a BG who on realizing he has taken a bullet (or more!) will feel shock/horror and panic. However, if he is dosed on PCP or meth then I may have a struggle. :P
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Never count on a one shot stop - do at least two at once - especially if the person can easily do you in if you are not affective - of course otherwise you should not have shot.
Let me tell you a true story. My brother - an excellent marksman and winner of handgun competitions - and years of knowledge on hangun safety shot himself a few years ago by accident.
It was with a Glock 40 cal (10mm) jacket hollow point (I think 135 grain - not sure of the brand) from a distance of less than a foot. The bullet reflected off of his metal cross pen in his shirt pocket enough to just miss his heart. The bullet went through his chest and out his back leaving a quarter size hole.
The amazing thing is he didn't know he was shot - thought the bullet missed and was looking aroung the garage for the hole - then he felt some dampness on his back. Called 911 and he walked out to the ambulance - they drove him to the field were a helicoper picked him up. It wasn't until he was half way to the hospital before he felt any pain. Remember this is quarter size hole through the chest that did not bleed much. The bullet was completely mushroomed.
Well he recovered and is still shooting several times a week and carries a pistol most days. The thing is if he was a bad guy with a gun and you made one shot to the chest and stopped, you probably would be history.
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"Just the facts, Ma'am. Nothing but the facts."
There are no guarantees. 72% is just a percentage, a statistic, on a fairly large sample size. Buy your gun, and take your chances.
Select wisely, and your chances improve. That's what statistics are for. And, training helps.
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Ahhh... now i see what the communication problem is. Some of you youngsters may not be familiar with Marshall and Sanow's one-shot-stop research. It was quite controversial at the time, and many seasoned readers are more familiar with it because they lived through its history.
The rationale behind one shot stops is not a recommendation for your course of action. One shot stops were selected as a means of isolating the effects of bullets and caliber in human shootings. Since it is unethical to shoot humans for experimental purposes, they took data from real life street shootings that happened anyway. However, it is difficult to compare the effectiveness of 3 shots with a 380 to 1 shot with a .45. So the researchers only compared single shots to the torso. Then they relied on large sample sizes to calculate the % of one-shot-stops. With a large sample size, statistical methods could "prove" that a .45 hollowpoint was more effective than a 380 full metal jacket.
Still later, experienced users like SWAT teams discovered that statistical results may not suit their particular application. For example, the statistics show that the most effective load of all time is 125 grain .357 magnum hollowpoint. (That is, within the range of normal handgun calibers. Otherwise, an M1A1 tank round is pretty effective.) However, SWAT teams discovered that they don't always make pure torso shots. Sometimes they want to shoot through a car windshield, car door, or wall stud, without having their relatively light, 125 grain bullet deflected. So, more SWAT's are going to the heavier 230 grain .45 caliber bullets. (Think of a BG shooting from around a corner. SWAT may want to shoot through the corner to stop the fight.) Also, police departments are discovering that certain calibers are more effective in making "psychological" stops. When the big slug hits an extremity and not the torso, sometimes it is shocking enough that the BG decides to cease fire even though he could still pull the trigger. (Like he looks at this big bloody hole and asks himself, do I want to take another?)
So, the one-shot-stop statistics are an evaluation tool, not a course of action. Still, a one-shot-stop is good if you can do it.
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This thread is fascinating to me. I have nothing to contribute to the debate except one thing: The antigunners love to ridicule gun owners as dopey guys with cigrettes hanging out of their mouths, sucking on a can of beer and shooting anything that moves.
If this thread were to garnish any stereotype, it would necessarily conclude that R9 guys are conspicuously intelligent. Continue the debate, by all means, and lets hope none of us ever has to be in the 28 percentile that (allegedly) will require a second shot.
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gr8guns:
Was not disputing how they do their statistics gr - I was just relating a personal story of how a shoot though the chest with a 40 cal hollow point did not affect my brother in the short term.
Since I don't have my R9S yet I carry a 32 Seecamp. I remember reading a report that a 32 cal silvertip had a large one stop record - that I think was equal to a 45 jacketed. Even though I carry silertips (old stock - there seems to be problems with the new silvertips in the Seecamp) I would not stop with one shot if for some reason I ever had to use the gun - which I hope I never do. The only time I have had to use a pistol in self defense was when a racoon, that I am sure had rabies, came after me in the woods.
I think the movie, TV, industry is to blame with thinking that most everyone shot goes down with one bullet. I know that is the case with knives. How many times have you seen someone stabbed once in the movies or TV and they fall down dead. Then how many times have you heard of someone who was murdered with a knife and they were stabbed 30 to 50 times.
Thanks for your effort putting the information together gr.
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Welcome.
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I can garrantee an increase of 100% in the one shot stop criteria. Shoot him again!
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Good plan. Some experts advocate the "zipper" technique. Start shooting as soon as your sights come in line with the BG's torso and shoot a zipper from there to his head.
Good plan, but there are no guarantees of a second shot. Some reasons why you may only get one hit on the BG include low light poor sight, barricades, bullet deflectors such as cars or shrubbery, moving BG, your own poor bullet placement during the heat of battle, etc. The fact that Marshall and Sanow can collect so many examples of single hits to the torso for each different caliber and bullet design show that, in real gun fights, one hit is often all you get.
One-shot-stops work in both directions. Sometimes the BG wins. For statistical purposes, those tragedies were included too.
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I can't advise any of you, of course, but from a legal standpoint, I personally would not want to be characterized as always shooting twice or "zipper" style, or any other way for that matter. And, I wouldn't want a discoverable posting trail saying such things if I were ever on the unpleasant end of a police investigation or lawsuit after a shooting.
Instead, I would probably want to be characterized as using the appropriate amount of force warranted by the situation and the threat presented.
I would practive a variety of shooting techniques so that I was competent with my pistol and had the skills to shoot once, or more if necessary. And, I would use my best judgment (even if by necessity, it is snap judgment based on limited information and fallable human perception). But that's just me.
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Outlawyer has a good point. My CCW instructor is a former Michigan policeman. He stressed that the use of deadly force, when justified (very narrow circumstances in MI), is to STOP THE THREAT, not necessarily to kill.
My instructor also warned us that you can expect to be the target of a civil suit even if law enforcement & criminal courts find your shooting incident was justified.
Bottom line:
1. Have the phone number of a good lawyer in your wallet.
2. Expect to spend $10,000 to $100,000 to clear your name.
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Dead, or lose $100,000? Ahhh... It's great to be alive.
Some say if you are threatened enough to shoot at all, shoot a zipper. While you're assessing the effects of your first shot, you could wind up dead by a bad guy that did not stop shooting.
No, you never shot the threatening bad guy by accident, mistake, or a nervous reflexive squeeze on the trigger. Any of those = manslaughter, and everything you own goes to pay the civil liability.
Do not express doubt that this was an intentional shooting to protect your life. Some say memorize this: "Officer, I shot to stop the threat. I want a lawyer, now."
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The fact that .357 has a better one shot stop rating than .41 or .44 magnum negates the reliability of these statistics to me.
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I have to admit I am more than a bit skeptical about this 72% stat, primarely because one of the premises it is based on is that there is any validity at all to Evan Marshal's data and conclusions.
People shot on the street are shot under a wide variety of circumstances. Everything varies one shooting to the next. What kind of gun? What stock of ammo? Who was wearing what? What was the tempature? How long was the barrel of the gun? And on and on... So it's okay to relate stories about shootings and to study them, but to then decide which bullets are more effective than others, in relation to each other, is not possible under uncontrolled conditions.
The way to select a round to put into your pistol is to see how well the ammo tested under tightly controlled lab conditions. This is the only way a rounds performance can be properly evaluated and compared to others. Look for penetration (14in), weight retention (as close to 100% as possible) and reliability of expansion. Make sure the ammo works in your pistol and you have made a good choice. Also, you might decide if you need barrier penetration or not (you do - always).
And then there is this "shot placement" thing. In a stres fire situation, you're not going to decide where exactly to hit your "target." Your life is being threatened by someone using lethal force against you and you have less than 2 seconds to react. Shot placement means hitting him at all. You're not going to aim for his heart or head, especially if he is moving, and hit it. If you do, it was luck.
The vast majority of people who are shot are incapacitated by blood loss resulting from being shot. This takes time. Notice I didn't say "stopped." Many people who are shot "stop" because they were shot, not because the can't physically continue a bit longer. Yes, sometimes there is a central nervous system hit, but that's rare.
So just pick the best round that is reliable in your pistol, practice with what you carry and, most of all, pray you never have a chance to find out how well you chose.
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Outlawyr,
You give some very good advice. We may survive the gun battle, but many times the harder battle is afterward in court. My two brothers who were both involved in a self defense bar shooting (in my home town of Detroit), both went to jail. There were some extenuating circumtances, but the main thing is that they were both still alive after the battle.
Ed
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By the way one of my brothers had a .22 pistol. One shot to the chest of the big drunken "Good ol' Boy" holding him from behind put him down, but didn't kill him. This allowed that brother to go to the aid of my other brother, who weighs about 120 lbs. and had a 300 lb drunken "Good ol' Boy" sitting on his chest, beating his head in with a pool ball. The 300 lb. "Good ol' Boy" took four .22 rounds. The only reason he stopped beating my other brother is that one of the .22 rounds broke his right arm. He was ready to start beating my brother with the other hand when my second brother came to and was able to draw his .38 2" barrel revolver. He fired one .38 Super Vel HP point blank into the "Good ol' Boy's" chest. This finally ended the one sided fight.
For you Michigan readers, or anyone else interested, this happened in the early 1970s at the Leaky Tap Saloon, on Conant at Davison in Detroit. It was right across the street from the Davison Police station. Police response time after the first call, when the fight first started, was 45 minutes! So much for the anti-gun crowd's arguement of "...you don't need guns...you have the police to protect you."
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[size=13] It was right across the street from the Davison Police station. Police response time after the first call, when the fight first started, was 45 minutes![/size]
AMAZING!!!
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I pretty much recognize that the police will not be able to respond in time, whenever you are in immediate danger. That's certainly a good justification for concealed pistol licensing.
I have the highest respect for law enforcement, but there are not enough officers to ensure complete and immediate coverage.
I'm sure glad your brothers were able to survive this incident. Here's hoping the time will come when we will not be sued for protecting ourselves.
Bill
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AMAZING!!!
That is amazing. Detroit's gone downhill since the '70's. If it happened today, the police wouldn't show up at all. >:(
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Everyone,
The Second Amendment was ratified in 1791, 16 years AFTER the formation of the Marine Corps on November 10, 1775. The Second Amendment is not about arming our military.
Rather, the Second Amendment is about the importance that our government fears its people rather than the people fear their government.
How can one man with a gun make a difference? On September 10, 2001, everyone felt the same way about box cutters.