The Rohrbaugh Forum
Rohrbaugh Products and Accessories => Rohrbaugh R9 (all variations) => Topic started by: TW on December 31, 2004, 01:00:06 AM
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>>I spent an enjoyable day at the range today, and put my R9 through some new paces for the fun of it. I've heard folks ask about how frangible ammo works through the 'lil pups and so today I tried some - put four clips of 100 gr Speer Frangible stuff through my R9...and it worked flawlessly. So for folks in tight spaces = planes, trains, and automobiles - this may be the ticket you are after...! Enjoy and be safe...!...TW<<
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Good to hear of the good functionality ... but hey - ain't that stuff wicked spendy?? I have meant to look out for some but confess, price had somewhat put me off too.
I have some wierd recollection of $33 per box .. not sure where I got it from.
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Frangible ammo isn't cheap.
But I think RBCD or Magsafe Defender rounds are almost custom made for the Rohrbaugh.
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Frangible may have some narrow applications but I don't trust the stuff. From various data and tests I've seen I would much rather have hollow points in my gun. Over penetration and ricochets are unlikely with modern HP's and frangible rounds may not make it past jackets, buttons, pens, bones, whatever - just my .02.
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Hi Fire:
When I was first introduced to Magsafe in 1990, I did some "fun testing." Back then I didn't know anything about jello testing. My focus was on tactical penetration--against hard objects. I did fun testing for about 18 months to 2 years. By the time I was done, I was sold on frangile ammo.
Today, I like three: Glasser (owned by CorBon), Magsafe, and RBCD. Against a hard target these three types of cartridges act like a FMJ bullet. They are each designed to break apart only in a fluid rich enviornment.
There is a very emotional debate over frangible ammo. But the bottom line is that we each must make our own informed decision. Because the bottom line is that it is our life that we are dealing with.
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Thanks for the input - I've done little of that type of testing - some with Glasers, I should probably do some more with up to date ammo. It would be a bit expensive but a lot of fun. I would like to get some ballistic gelatin and put various obstacles in front of it, like clothing, some hard objects, etc.
This may be a good project once spring arrives and days are longer and warmer. It's always nice to have something a little different to do at the range other than just punch paper!
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Hi Fire:
Glasser was the first frangible ammo to actually work for defensive purposes. The original Glasser was shot pellets encased in a truncated cone jacket suspended in liquid Teflon. The round was then changed to promote greater tactical penetration. The idea was to punch through bone and then create a massive, but fairly shallow, wound channel to promote bleeding.
Magsafe was designed to have greater penetration than Glasser with multiple wound channels instead of the Glasser shot cloud. Magsafe uses various shot sizes suspended in an epoxy matrix.
RBCD was originally designed to be AP. This bullet was designed specifically for anti-terroist military and police action. The original bullet was lead free metal power held in place with a 3M plastic encased in a jacket on top of a plastic pellet. Since the powered metal was harder than steel, it would punch through dimond plate like butter, expanding like an umbrella in a fluid rich enviornment (ie. a body).
The non-military version uses lead power, but is otherwise the same construction. By using lead, it was classified as non-AP and approved for civilian sales by the BATF.
Since 1990, I've used frangible ammo in all of my pocket guns. I do so as a force multiplier. My intent for the defensive use of a firearm is to stop an attacker. It makes no difference to me if he lives or dies, just so he is not a threat to me or to my loved ones.
The key to stopping power is bullet placement. The benefit of frangible ammo is when bullet placement is less than ideal. These bullets create such massive injuries, that they cannot go unnoticed by a BG.
My primary defensive handgun is a Glock 36. I have never used frangible ammo in that gun. In fact I have never considered frangible ammo in any caliber larger than 38 Special. But when dealing with bullets smaller than .357, I view frangible ammo as a plus.
Right now, I still use standard pressure Magsafe Defender rounds in all of my pocketguns. But I will switch over to RBCD in my 32 ACP, and maybe my 380. As to my Rohrbaugh, I think I will stay with Magsafe.
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George - interesting to hear your take .... can you give sourcing for RBCD - and cost? It's not something I have ever seen on the shelves in any local gun shops.
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Hi R9SCarry:
You can find Glasser and Magsafe at gun stores and gun shows. They are sold in blister packs (Magsafe comes 8 to a pack, I don't know about Glasser--my guess would be 6 to a pack). RBCD is sold in boxes of 20.
Glasser and Magsafe sells for somewhere between $13-18 per pack. You can find "deals" on them, but even with a deal--it will be expensive. RBCD sells for about $34 a box.
Standard pressure (the "Defender" series) Magsafe 9mm has 1,800 fps with 444 fpe. RBCD screams at 2010 fps with 539 fpe.
RBCD is sold by various retailers, but it is easier to buy directly from them.
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Thank you George - so my ''guestimate'' on the price was close ... or more likely I had half remembered a mention before.! Again ... ouch!
I must think about getting some I think - if only to evaluate for self.
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George - that's an interesting history on the development of frangibles. From your knowledgeable data base do you know the ability of any of the rounds you are discussing to break or shatter bone? One reason why I have always shied away from those rounds is the possibility of a situation of a close attacker, ie: knife, that I must be able to hit and break the pelvic bones - nothing will drop an attacker more quickly - other than a hit directly to the medulla. The other is worry about punching through a windshield.
I know those are isolated situations but I have always wanted something I could be completely confident would serve me well in virtually all defensive situations.
Thanks for your insight - it is through these discussions that I gather info and get curious enough to do more research - whether it's reading or range time.
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Hi Guys!
Sorry to not chime in very frequently, but the Christmas season was brutal, work-wise, and I'm just now seeing blue sky.
Yes, I was the one who broke down and ordered some RBCD
'Spendy' ammo. I got it a couple of weeks ago but have not had time to get to the range and shoot a bullet. Cause that's all I can afford of this stuff. At these prices, the rounds should have GPS capabilities;^)
I got a box o' twenty each of the 9mm and the .45ACP. When I get back from the range, I'll have a report.
Oh, PMC makes their 'Green' frangible ammo, which has no heavy metals at all. In fact they claim it'll clean your barrel for you. Only thing is, you gotta order it from your dealer, since none seem to stock it. I'd love to try it, but I'm not buying a whole case of ammo before I know if it'll work.
Comments, anyone? Wanna split a case with me?
Calvin
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You can see some gelatin tests at http://www.goldenloki.com, although not necessarily in the specific gun you are interested in. The data on this site caused me to acquire some RBCD for my Kel-Tec P-32, and I have found the energy level (at least when measured by felt recoil) to be comparable to Cor-Bon.
George, what is your reasoning for choosing Magsafe in some calibers and RBCD in others? For me, I prefer RBCD because of cost, and because of the uniform bullet density which gives me the same accuracy as a JHP.
Like George, I generally think that frangible ammo makes the most sense in pocket guns, because the limited accuracy inherent in the gun makes the lack of accuracy of some (Glaser and Magsafe) and the loss of velocity of others (RBCD) largely irrelevant, and because I want as much effectiveness as I can possibly squeeze from a (at least without a Rohrbaugh) small-caliber gun. With the Rohrbaugh, the standard-pressure limit would seem to make RBCD an attractive choice if functioning is OK.
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Bill - useful link - pity no Gold Dots put thru the gel test but - nonetheless most interesting. RBCD in particular!!
I have added a link to the Goldenloki 9mm gel test page on my R9 FAQ site ... thanks for that.
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Hi Firebreather01:
Not all frangible bullets are designed for defensive use. Most frangible ammo is designed to be "range safe" ammo.
But Magsafe, Glasser, and RBCD were designed and intended for LEO/military use and they, as a class, have excellent tactical penetration. Against a hard target, such as a steel car door, or a wooden door, or bone they act like a FMJ.
Keep in mind that water doesn't compress--the whole concept of hydraulics is based on that. That fact is what causes the bullet to fragment.
Where frangible ammo is criticized is their limited penetration in a fluid rich enviornment.
Before he died, Joe Zambone, the founder of Magsafe kept track of every shooting where his ammo was used. It was easy for him to follow, since his early customers were almost exclusively police agencies. One incident that he use to crow about was a lateral shooting. In that incident a bullet hit the BG's right arm and fragmented there. Only one pellet reached the heart, but the bullet severed the bad guys's arm. From his perspective--the bullet failed--but what a failure.
But for me, the bottom line is that I have confidence in the stopping power of a small caliber frangible round.
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Hi Bill:
I've used Magsafe for so long that I have a high level of confidence in the bullet. But I will most likely switch over to RBCD exclusively in time.
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Hi, Guys.
I asked Eric about using MagSafe or Glaser rounds in the R9, and he said he wasn't sure it was OK (I suppose because of velocities/pressures--I'm not sure).
I like both Glaser and MagSafe. Especially since reading the "Strasbourgh Goat Tests", although I am against doing such testing. I think they should instead use convicted rapists/Murderers :)
I am unfamiliar with RBCD as a round.
My big question is: is it safe to use these rounds in the R9? Magsafe has different types of 9mm. Are they all ok to use?
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Both RBCD and Magsafe "Defender" cartridges are standard pressure. I don't know about Glasser.
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Recently, I bought a box of Non-Toxic Frangible 9mm rounds from a local company here in Western Pennsylvania. Their name is the International Cartridge Corporation. Their address is 2273 Route 310, Reynoldsville, PA 15851. Their web site is: www.internationalcartridge.com. These have a hollow-point bullet design and sell for $25.00 for a box of fifty. I haven't shot any of these rounds yet. Have any of you used these? Anyways, please comment.
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Oscar - been to their site - I am well interested. Over 500 ft lbs from an 8" barrel is pretty good - wonder what they'd manage thru R9.
I see you mention West PA ... but guess you are further North than me ... I am only approx 25 miles from MD line .. Bedford County. Did you get your ammo direct from them? I haven't yet quite placed there exact location - not looked up on map.
Be most interested to know your appraisal once you shoot some.
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I use Glaser ammo but only in short barreled revolvers. There is some concern regarding the ability to properly operate the system in semi-auto pistols. At the cost of these things I could never fire enough rounds in my semi-autos to satisfy myself regarding reliability. No such problem with revolvers.
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R9SCarry:
I bought these rounds from company salesman at a gun show in Monroeville, PA. The International Cartridge Corporation had quite a spread there with plenty of stock and information. Reynoldsville is about twenty miles north of Punxsutawney. I live about twenty eight miles south of Punxsy in a little town called Home.
Dimensionally, these bullets are very close to the GDHP's. Overall length of the GDHP's is 1.120" vs 1/125" for the ICC rounds. The beginning of the final radius into the hollow point of the GDHP's measure about .120" in width vs. .110" for the ICC rounds.
I'll try these out soon and let yun'z know how they performed.
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Hi Oscar:
It seems ICC ammo was designed to be "green" range safe ammo. Lead free with no lead primers. The use of frangible ammo for range safety has been big in Europe for years, but fairly new here.
Glasser, Magsafe, and RBCD were intended not as range safe ammo, but as personal protection ammo.
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There is a range here in Las Vegas that now only allows frangible ammo to be used. This range has now become useless, in my opinion, because carry ammo can no longer be tested there. Luckily there are other ranges available. I hope this doesn't become a trend.
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I noticed some of you guys are saying it's ok to use the Magsafe Defender series in the R9s, however, I've noticed that on the actual bullet it shows the +p sign. Do your bullets carry this stamping or is it just mine. I bought them some time in 96-97.
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Magsafe uses commerical brass. The "P+" on the brass, doesn't mean the Magsafe loading is "P+."
There are P+ loadings. But the "Defender" series was designed to be alloy gun safe.
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Hey guys, I have been using RBCD since late 1999 and as of 2002 I am a manufacturers rep for RBCD ammo in In, Ok, Ks, Az, Nv, and Ut. I am responsible for setting up dealers in those states and can only sell in those states. I am slowly bringing in dealers, the next will be in Ogden, Ut and then one in the Phoenix area. That was a disclaimer, not an advertisement.
I have a flyer with some links that I am posting here, so you can do some further research on your own if you are interested.
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Articles done on the Blackwater Shootout over the years in Armed Forces Journal International. Each year the articles get better:
(In the 2001 article you must use the ‘continue’ at the bottom of each page. The page numbers at the top are NOT correct.)
2001: http://www.afji.com/AFJI/Mags/2001/August/MeteorRound.htm
2002: http://www.afji.com/AFJI/Mags/2002/August/shootout.html
2003: http://www.armedforcesjournal.com/blackwater/2003/
2004: http://www.armedforcesjournal.com/blackwater/cmark1.html
2004: http://www.armedforcesjournal.com/blackwater/analysis1.html
These links have downloadable videos, also known as watch the meat explode:
http://www.armedforcesjournal.com/blackwater/2003/videos.html
http://www.armedforcesjournal.com/blackwater/videos.html
RBCD ammo in the real world:
Private contractor (former SEAL) using RBCD in Iraq
http://www.armytimes.com/story.php?f=1-292925-2426405.php
World record sniper shot by Canadian sniper in support of the U.S. 101st Airborne during Operation Anaconda in Afghanistan's Shah-i-Kot Valley:
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1026271952413_269
(This has recently come into question from a reliable source. Unfortunately nobody has been able to explain what alternate cartridge was used in a weight under 650-750 gr range used by most .50 BMG ammo manufacturers that are driven to higher velocity to explain the 'farther, faster' comment from the sniper.)
Special ammunition for Israel:
http://www.gordonthomas.ie/113.html
A blog with info on actual use. (We call it the 'Q' round)
terrasol.home.igc.org/mideast/carla-palestine.htm
An excerpt:
...it was time to retreat, as the use of silent bullets meant serious...
Independent test against other 9mm ammo in an attempt to determine which is best:
(RBCD is the second on the list and include a photo of the dispersion)
(be sure to click on ‘9mm Chronograph Tests’ at the bottom and view the spreadsheet)
http://www.geocities.com/goldenloki2/9mm/gel9.html
Another meaningless independent test. Only comment here is that NOBODY else makes a bullet like ours.
http://www.strategypage.com/messageboards/messages/29-1643.asp
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Hey Jeff - first time I've seen you over here (P95 here from THR!!) ... some useful info - I'm off to go explore. Welcome here! :)
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Jeff - those links to vid's ... I get error message box - "rtsp is not a registered protocol". I notice the download option for streaming vid is Real Player - already have that. I see all files are ''rm'' .. so need RealPlayer, that's fine but as I say - got it!. Can't work out this error message tho - any ideas? Looks like some interesting vid footage to be seen.
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I now realize - this rtsp deal ... refers to rtsp:// as a start to a URL! What? No http? Is this only available thru some other means? help!?
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I like this forum. I have been here awhile, just don't post much since you seem to have everything under control. I don't get around to the boards much, too many friends died last year and it is kind of depressing. VERY busy lately, just got back from SHOT (I did an interesting report on Rohrbaugh and the guns did start shipping last week), Salt Lake City the weekend before, Tulsa and Dallas this coming weekend, and Phoenix in a couple of weeks. I still have a bunch of material to publish on the SHOT Show as well.
The videos are great, I hope that they get them fixed. Unfortunately they are on the AFJI website and I have nothing to do with them.
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RCBD AMMO 9mm 60 gr. TFSP 2010 fps / 539 flbs
Half the weight of the Speer Gold Dot 115gr and travelling at Mach 9 - Where is it going to print on the target? 20 inches low at 25 yards? This is a fixed sight weapon.
Kerry
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I just spoke to the factory, they claim their 60gr bullet will drop 1" to 1 1/2" lower than a Speer Gold Dot 115gr bullet at 50 feet, but do 10 times the damage.
Kerry
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I have a feeling this link has been posted before ... but it does have some use simply as an additional source of test info. Disappointing to see no Gold Dots - plus of course, tests thru P11 and not our R9. No frangibles either.
http://www.goldenloki.com/ammo/gel/9mm/gel9.htm
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Over the weekend I was able to run 25 rounds of the International Cartridge Corporation frangible ammunition through my R9S with no problems. There were no fail to feeds or fail to ejects. The performance at 25 yds. was similar to Speer GDHP's. Just thought you all would like to know.