The Rohrbaugh Forum
Rohrbaugh Products and Accessories => Rohrbaugh R9 (all variations) => Topic started by: JimmyD on November 27, 2004, 02:44:05 PM
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First of all, please forgive my ignorance on the subject, I'm just trying to learn something here.
I've read the "R9 failure" threads as well as the "proper lube" thread and I'm wondering...what's the purpose of creating a gun with such tight tolerances? It seems to me that the R9 needs to be "babied" alot for proper function. The "proper lube" pictures which show a vaseline like grease used seems like it would attract alot of dirt/lint, etc which could lead to failures. Wouldn't you want a carry piece to be a little more forgiving? If you are going to trust your life to something, why not design it so that it will still work if it's a little dirty, or if "Brand Y" lube is used instead of "Brand X." Please understand, I'm not trying to knock the R9 or it's design, I'm just wondering what the benefits are of such tight tolerances. The R9 is on my "to get" list but finances are going to prevent me from getting one in the near future. Until then, I'll be reading up on it and trying to get a better understanding of it's design.
Thanks!
JD
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The gun has tight tolerances because it is a speciality piece designed to be what no other gun is -- the smallest 9mm autoloader on the planet.
I can't speak for others, but mine is not finicky at all. I lubed it with other things before I realized that Rohrbaugh srongly recommened SuperLube. No problems. I fed it boxes of Winchester White Box 9mm before I found out it was possibly not the best ammo for the gun. No problems.
The proper lube instructions came down because guns were being returned to the factory run bone dry with no lube and people were talking about wiping off the factory lube before shooting it.
Don't even get me started on the "failure" thread. This is a single gun with a problem that cannot be identified because it cannot be duplicated at the factory. That remains a mystery.
Few people write on Internet forums to say how flawless their guns are. While these forums are great souces of information, they greatly exagerate any problems that anyone has. If you believed everything you read about Kahrs (poor customer service, barrel recalls, magazine retention failures)--you would wonder how they sell any. If you believed everything you read about Glocks, you would be afraid to shoot one for fear it would explode in your hand.
The R-9s are fine guns backed 100% by the company. No one here can dispute the customer service or the commitment shown by the Rohrbaughs.
Stick around here while you are waiting -- you will see what I mean.
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Hi Jimmy D,
For what it's worth, my experience with my early Rohrbaugh exactly mirrors what DDGator posted in the previous message. Mine is one of the first batch that was released to the public, so I've used it for longer than most. It is not finicky in the least. It has fired, fed, and ejected every 9mm I have ever tried in it. I haven't used any +P or handloads, just standard factory ammo of decent quality.
It looks like many of us on this list are using standard velocity Gold Dots because that has proven to be a good round and seems to work beautifully with this pistol. But, when I first bought mine, I believe the guys at the Rohrbaugh factory were shooting Silvertips in theirs. Mine hasn't shown any decided preference for any particular ammo brand, but I have a bunch of Ammoman 9mm Gold Dots for practice, and it's a good round, so I'm using it for carry also.
For what it's worth, my Rohrbaugh has been completely flawless in its function so far and I don't see any reason it shouldn't continue to do the same in the future. If there are ever any problems with mine I have complete confidence that the guys (and gals?) at the Rohrbaugh factory would make sure the problem would be taken care of.
I'm a long time shooter, have had a number of guns pass through my hands, and this little pistol is beautifully made and to my mind is of absolutely the highest quality. I couldn't be more satisfied. If I was unhappy with it for any reason, believe me, I wouldn't still own it, but I have complete confidence in this little pistol, and it's a pleasure to own it.
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]The gun has tight tolerances because it is a speciality piece designed to be what no other gun is -- the smallest 9mm autoloader on the planet.
That doesn't really answer my question. You can make a small gun without tight tolerances. How, specifically do the tight tolerances make the gun better? I can see the cons, but what are the pros?
The proper lube instructions came down because guns were being returned to the factory run bone dry with no lube and people were talking about wiping off the factory lube before shooting it.
From what I understand, (at least with other guns,) it is recommended to clean/relube them prior to shooting for the first time. The reasoning is that the factory usually "over lubes" the gun because they don't know how long it may sit on a shelf somewhere, so the extra lube helps in rust prevention. Of course, once all the factory excess is removed, the gun should be re-lubed before shooting for the first time.
Don't even get me started on the "failure" thread. This is a single gun with a problem that cannot be identified because it cannot be duplicated at the factory. That remains a mystery.
Actually, there were two separate guns. :) The replacement gun was just as bad as the original. It is a mystery and it would be nice to know what the problems were.
If you believed everything you read about Kahrs (poor customer service, barrel recalls, magazine retention failures)--you would wonder how they sell any.
From personal experience, I can tell you that Kahr's customer service is worthless. I had a PM9 that had alot of failures to extract. I called Kahr, they told me that they would replace the extractor. They said they could either send me a new extractor or they would prefer that I send the gun back to them so they can "check it out thoroughly" prior to sending it back to me. So, one week after I bought it, I had to shell out another $45 for shipping. They got the pistol, did NOT replace the extractor, just did a fluff and buff. When I got it back, the failure rate was even worse than when I sent it in. I had trouble reaching them again, they would not return phone calls or emails so I sold the gun. Many months later, I reluctantly bought a second PM9 and it's been flawless. Bottom line - Kahr's customer service sucks!
If you believed everything you read about Glocks, you would be afraid to shoot one for fear it would explode in your hand.
Just the .40 cals. :) I have a G27 with around 1000 rounds through it - no problems, but all the reports of the unsupported chamber do make me wonder. Sure, I believe the problem is almost always bad ammo but a fully supported chamber may help to contain the "kaboom" a little better than Glock's unsupported chamber.
The R-9s are fine guns backed 100% by the company. No one here can dispute the customer service or the commitment shown by the Rohrbaughs.
I'm not disputing any of that, I hope you didn't get that impression.
Thanks for the reply,
JD
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For what it's worth, my experience with my early Rohrbaugh exactly mirrors what DDGator posted in the previous message. Mine is one of the first batch that was released to the public, so I've used it for longer than most. It is not finicky in the least. It has fired, fed, and ejected every 9mm I have ever tried in it.
That is good to hear. I realize that problems are somewhat "magnified" on internet forums. I know my Glocks have me spoiled, I have a G19 and G27. They actually recommend very little lube on these (just in a few key places) and I was wondering if a small 9MM such as the R9 could be built that was as "forgiving" as the Glocks were. Maybe it's not possible otherwise Glock would've done it by now.
JD
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That is good to hear. I realize that problems are somewhat "magnified" on internet forums.
JD
In my opinion the positives AND negatives are blown out of proportion on internet forums.........just my .02 :)
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Hi again, Jimmy D,
About the tight tolerances, as I understand it, the tight Rohrbaugh tolerances are useful in keeping pocket lint out of the interior working parts of this pistol. If this is not correct, I'm confident someone here will correct me. ;D ;D
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You may get lucky or you may not... same with any other product.
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I have had few problems and those that did occur seemed ammo related ... thus I regard the piece as reliable and ideal for my purpose ... only sorry tho that the occassional ''problem child'' seems to occur.
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Jimmy,
I don't know how else to answer the queston about the tolerances. The close tolerances have not been a con for me, so I am not sure how to balance them. Until the gun gives me some problems due to overly tight tolerances -- I gotta assume it just works. I don't know if it would work as well if it was loosey goosey.
I don't think the factory overlubes the gun. They don't recommend taking the lube off. The gun is stainless and aircraft aluminum -- its not gonna rust, nor is it likely to sit in anyone's stock room for too long!
And yes -- you are right, two guns, one customer. I believe that the first "bad" gun was demoted to a demo gun and taken to several shoots. I have asked Eric to send the second "bad" gun to me to be disposed of properly...
My point on the customer service is not to be scared of this gun. If you get one that doesn't work you will be properly taken care of. Well, you should only be scared if it is pointed at you... ;D
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hello all, I haven't posted here in awhile, but wanted to add my two cents worth to jimmyD based on my experience with my R9s. First, I agree with the above comments cautioning against taking online, anecdotal stories as reliable evidence of a product's quality, reliability, etc. With that said, my experience with my particular R9s has been totally flawless, and I have approx. 650 rounds through it. I have received two phone calls from Eric Rohrbaugh concerning small orders I placed for extra magazines, grip screws, etc. Eric called not only to confirm or advise regarding my orders, but seemed more interested in hearing if I was happy with gun, and whether it was working properly. I have NEVER had that kind of service from any other gun manufacturer. I cannot imagine anyone feeling Rohrbaugh does not offer excellent service above and beyond that normally expected by the customer. I dont know how much stock you want to put in one more customer's expeerience, but there is mine for what its worth. As to questions regarding tolerances, I am no engineer, or expert of any kind on that subject, but it seems to me that tighter tolerances would always be preferable as long as gun remains 100% reliable. I know mine is so I am happy. Anyone who owns one that is not relaible may have legitimate question regarding tolerances, but I would assume everyone prefers tighter tolerances if all other things, i.e. reliability, remain equal. If there is serious problem with R9s reliability, then maybe there is a legitimate question there. I am just not aware of any serious, widespread problem and do not believe there is any reason to suspect one exists. The vast majority of R9s owners appear to be totally happy as far as I can tell.
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Pure design considerations aside -- the two big factors with a firearm (many other things too) is materials choice - and tolerancing.
The materials choice is probably an obvious one - choose and use poor and inferior materials and the gun with either not last as long in service and/or - it'll break!!! Tolerancing is an area where there is much leeway - in as much as ''sloppy'' will probably still work - but at expense probably of some accuracy and even reliability. That said - for items like some military weapons, over-tight tolerancing may not be so adviseable in order to reduce chance of malfunctions due to crud etc - some ''slop'' actually guarantees better reliability, but downside might be accuracy and longevity.
With the R9 we have somewhat of a special case. It is as I say repeatedly - a thorobred - a gun built with a specific purpose. Namely, highly concealable and yet in genuine 9x19 cal. It is made from top notch materials and is a toughie - and also it is as we know tight tolerance. That costs! Takes more in way of time, set-up, machine sophistication, etc.
The advantage as I see it is, we have an end result where quality is the norm ... the function is such that significant wear is a long ways away ... and with adequate lube this is minimized. Sloppy tolerances can reduce friction with slide/frame interaction but OTOH - if you start sloppy, you'll only get more sloppy, as the truth of component interfacing during cycling is poor - meaning - wear areas are localized and will get more so.
The tight tolerance system ensures that wear is distributed evenly - much better even tho lubing may be more critical. The ''perfect'' slide/frame set might mean having linear uniformity and truth within which might be a mere 10th thou clearance - this could however be too little, leading to differential thermal expansion coefficient problems with dissimilar materials .. the aluminum and stainless.
I have not asked Eric what the tolerancing is but suspect it is as tight as is safe to go - maybe a thou or so with frame/slide - giving a good sliding fit. A thou the other side of theoretical minimum would be interference fit!!
I am waffling again - thinking out loud more like! But I am constantly amazed and impressed - at the engineering finesse that has gone into this lil' pup .... and can readily realize just what a huge bunch of time and cost must have been soaked up during development.
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DDGator, it wasn't "bad". The guns that I have gotten are bad. I don't appreciate the implication with "bad". When I mentioned that I wanted to try my current pistol one more time and have my friend videotape the entire session, Eric told me to not shoot it anymore.
I'll let the board form their own conclusions.
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I am not trying to pick a fight with you, Incursion. I am addressing the fact that the status of both your guns is uncertain -- and I don't think its fair to call them "bad."
Both guns you received had problems that could not be duplicated at the factory. The last gun sent to you the last time fired 75 trouble free rounds at the factory with several people, yet you cannot get through a single magazine. I don't know what to make of it. I don't doubt it didn't work for you, but I am not convinced the gun has huge problems that its designer can't find or remedy.
Yes, Eric told you not to shoot it anymore. He has never told me why -- but I can imagine why. Why would it work any better the next time?
I also thought it was odd that you never mentioned that Eric not only offered a full refund of the MSRP, but also reimbursed you for your shipping and the ammo you sent. He also invited you to come to the factory, so you could meet with him and Karl and get to the bottom of these things. All examples of over-the-top customer service IMHO.
I am certainly not accusing you of anything. But, I also believe Eric when he tell me it works fine at the factory. There is a logical disconnect that I can't solve -- that leads to quotes around "bad" when I am replying to people who think your gun is indicative of major problems at the factory or in the design.
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>>Hi Incursion...
I just looked up the definition of your handle, "Incursion", in the Oxford American Dictionary...... "an invasion or attack, especially when sudden or brief". Hmmmm.
Intentional or not, your nic seems appropriate when it comes to all things Rohrbaugh. Personally, I will stick with the theory you are jinxed...it is much less offensive and takes the pressure off of you. But then again...maybe if you changed your handle...??... Just a thought. Or maybe the timing just isn't right...??...try a Rohrbaugh again in a year or two...?...!
It would be nice to see you satisfied with a Rohrbaugh one way or another, if that's possible. Then again, perhaps you should take the Rohrbaugh refund and buy a big stick. Yeah...that's the ticket - a big stick...!! In all seriousness, good luck whatever you do...however, you still might think about changing that handle of yours...might help you make more friends...TW<<
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haha my nick comes from my video gaming days. It's meant to sound intimidating. You guys insinuated that it was shooter error from the very start. I'm merely responding to that by defending myself, yet you guys still imply that it's my fault or that it could be my fault. I've had plenty of witnesses and even another board member shoot my Rohrbaugh.
On page 11 of the failure thread, I posted that they offered me a full refund. On page 9, I stated that Eric agreed to reimburse me all shipping costs. The visit to the factory was my suggestion because I may be up in NYC to visit Columbia and NYU in the spring. However, Eric was gracious enough to offer to come pick me up in NYC.
I'm not the only one that can't get through a single magazine. Jax had problems with the first gun, and 5 range officers at American Shooting Center in Houston, TX couldn't shoot the second one reliably.
I'm just trying to exonerate myself from fault. I don't know what exactly is causing the problems, but I do know that it's not me.
One last thing that I wanted to add: I'm not the one giving up on the gun. I'm willing to try another gun, but I understand Rohrbaugh's position. They are obviously cutting into their margin on my gun.
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It is possible that I have shot a bit over 3,000 rounds through my R9s (Sorry Eric... I know you told me to carry a lot shoot a little!!!). I did have a few ammo situations in the first several hundred rounds but I now KNOW that I was running my baby too dry.
My customary guns are Glocks, Makarovs and Keltecs - I seldom clean them and they work perfectly! In the spirit of FULL disclosure however I have sent nearly all of my Keltecs back to the factory and had them perfected after the first few hundred rounds...
Although I am not nearly as accurate of a shooter, at this point, as I used to be - the Rohrbaugh is capable of PHENOMENAL accuracy for such a tiny piece. I seldom remember my dreams but I did have an interesting dream last week where, in the dream, a dozen of us Rohrbaugh owners got together at a dirt pit where I sometimes shoot and had a 300 yard Shoot-Out against One Gallon Water Jugs.
The terrific design and the fabulously well perfected tollerances allow this fine piece to shoot far more accurately than another gun of similar size is likely to perform. Many SUPERB pistols and rifles, made for supreme accuracy, happen to be made or modified to very strict tolerances. These tight tolerances tend to eliminate functioning wiggle-wobble which extends longevity, as mentioned before here, and such tolerances also tend to make each Cycle-of-Action more similar and more repeatable.
I have exceptional results in mine with the Winchester White Box, 115 gr fmj that was sold by Walmart last year! The new WWB being currently sold is two-tone and not quite as accurate as last years ammo - although the box is printed the same. Both last years and this years WWB have been perfectly reliable for me.
I have shot a few hundred rounds of Speer Gold Dot Hollow Point in 124 into water bottles, butcher waste, pumkins, watermelons, large Korean cabbage and into a big tub of home made Knox Geletin and the GDHP standard pressure 124 has performed admirably as to expansion - getting to 3/4 inch average diameter as a rule. This same Speer GDHP, which I purchased some thousands of rounds of from AmmoMan, has also proven to be perfectly functional as well.
I think that the Rohrbaugh is not "finicky" in my mind but rather - it is a machine of nearly divine perfection as an engineering marvel. I like such things. I like to "tweek" almost every fine piece of machinery I have, my car, my other guns, my knives, my home, my computers, motorcycles, clothing, shoes, and the list goes on. The Rohrbaugh comes already tweeked to the max as far as I can tell.
I think that there is a common thread that runs through most of us here on the board; we generally appreciate fine machinery and seek to improve upon it for our own use in most cases. We have owned and do own a considerable number of other fine guns and many of them we have customized for better performance. We appreciate that the Rohrbaugh Brothers have built and custom finished a machine that is UP TO OUR STANDARDS OF EXCELLENCE and we find that remarkable, refreshing, commendable and very, very, valuable!
I've not made a habit of brevity in my speech or writing - in most any area!!! ;D
I think I speak for all of us in saying - Try It and we think you will love it. Let us know where you reside, where you travel if that pertains, and if possible one of us will likely try to meet you and let you pet and shoot one of our babies! ;D
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I take it then Jody - you quite like your lil' pup!!!! ;D ;D
Quite right too!
(watch those ''U'' turns ya hear!!) :D ;)
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Chris... It's quite fit to shoot! ;D
U-Turns are in good order and well practiced!!! ::)
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It is possible that I have shot a bit over 3,000 rounds through my R9s (Sorry Eric... I know you told me to carry a lot shoot a little!!!). ;D
3000 ROUNDS? Mr. Jody Huston, you are the MAN!! How long have you had yours. I've had mine about 4 months and have only about 200 through it. How many rounds do you typically shoot it during a single range outing? I shot 40 rounds through mine (2 boxes of GDHP) a couple of different times and that was PLENTY! I don't even have close to 3000 rounds through guns like my Ed Brown Kobra Carry or Glock 19. I usually don't put more than 50-100 rounds through any ONE pistol when I go to the range but shoot that many rounds in usually 4-5 different guns per range visit. I think the most I shot one gun during a trip to the range was 300 rounds each in my Kobra Carry and CQB Compact. I'm thinking about getting another R9 and a left pocket holster so I can carry two.........
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Two R9s!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Regarding shooting...
I try to shoot every day or at least 4 or 5 times a week for a couple to three hours each time.
Regarding my R9 - I have done a lot of testing of many different types of ammo in numerous of my pistols and in my R9 more than any recently. Two tests were done with a chrono and many more without. I've had mine since about the start of this board in time frame. I got one of the first relatively speaking...